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Note from your friendly Moderator:
I thought we'd try something a little different this week in Hot Topics. I am going to run a poll at the same time as this thread. I'd like you all please to take a couple of minutes to fill out the new October poll, WHAT DOES CONSENT MEAN TO YOU

http://gloria-brame.master.com/texis/master/search/poll.html

Once you've filled it out, please return here to discuss the meaning of consent in much greater detail.

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HOT TOPIC FOR THE WEEK OF OCTOBER 8, 2001

THE TRUE MEANING OF CONSENT

We banter the term around a lot, but what do we really mean when we say we're having a consensual BDSM relationship?

In my experience, a lot of people have difficulty communicating their deepest feelings and innermost thoughts. It can be a slippery slope when you get involved with someone who isn't able to articulate their feelings: how can you be sure that when they're giving you consent, they mean the same things by it that you do?

Here are some typical cases that regularly pop up in my mailbox:

A femsub has sworn to be a lifestyle slave and gives blanket consent to whatever her Master wants. That is, until her Master wants something that she doesn't want to do. So--if she did give blanket consent, does she have a right to say no? Is there a line we draw between what a slave can always say no to (for example, sex with dogs or edgeplay) and things a slave may not like but which he or she should feel obliged to do because, after all, he or she is a slave?

A malesub has hotly pursued femdoms all his life, perpetually frustrated because he can't find a "real" one. He finally meets a real one and is shocked when he realizes that she expects him to consent to total surrender. He is terrified because he thinks that by consenting he will lose his identity. Can consent rob a person of their identity? When does consent go too far?

A dominant accepts someone as a slave and then, a few weeks or months later, decides that he or she wants to change the groundrules, whether it's by changing the BDSM play, instituting a whole new set of rules, bringing other people into it, or anything else that
runs counter to the original arrangement. Does the dominant have the right to shift gears like this once a slave has been collared or has otherwise made a lifestyle commitment to the dom?

So folks, what do you all think? What DO we mean by consensual BDSM?

Glory

"What DO we mean by consensual BDSM?"
What *I* mean by it is probably at least slightly different from what anyone else means. This is a difficult subject to be truly objective about.

What *I* mean by it is that I talk over the subject of BDSM in general, and about specifics as the occasion arises. Even if I have recieved consent, I prefer to check in verbally with the person, and get further input from my partner both before and after any new types of play (or the same kind, if they react in a way that I don't expect).

"how can you be sure that when they're giving you consent, they mean the same things by it that you do?"
That's a good question. Words can be so malleable. Perhaps it's because I'm a woman, or because I'm a Gemini, or simply because I'm a human being, but my soft limits are subject to change without notice. So, I assume that my partner is likewise not static, and I do the best that I can to find out where they are at, and how they are feeling, without it getting overly obtrusive. I'd rather err on the side of caution at this point.

"So--if she did give blanket consent, does she have a right to say no?"
Obviously, the femsub in question was unaware of the real life consequenses of her consent, or is confused. It is the dominant's responsibility, IMHO, to take a step back, and find out what the femsub/slave's expectations are, and to be as clear as possible. If the femsub/slave wants out, then she should be released. Personally, I would never accept someone as a slave unless we had first explored our relationship on a non-absolute-consent basis. (Even then, I don't know that that would be a path which I would wish to follow.)

"Is there a line we draw between what a slave can always say no to and things a slave may not like but which he or she should feel obliged to do because, after all, he or she is a slave?"
IMHO, that depends upon the slave's awareness of what he/she has agreed to. Hard limits are hard limits, and should be spelled out before entering such an agreement. The soft limits issue is one that is difficult for me, because I personally cannot get into that mentality. To me, if something is beyond someone's boundaries, and they insist that they need to stop, that should be respected. So, I don't think that I can reasonably expect my opinion to matter to anyone else.

"Can consent rob a person of their identity?"
Consent, in and of itself, no. Total submission may or may not, depending upon the way that the Dominant goes about it.

"When does consent go too far?"
Consent itself doesn't go too far. However, consent and trust *can* be abused.

"Does the dominant have the right to shift gears like this once a slave has been collared or has otherwise made a lifestyle commitment to the dom?"
If the slave or submissive has made an agreement based on certain terms, then they can only be expected to abide by the terms that they consented to. The Dominant can renegotiate the contract, but should not, IMHO, make a unilateral decision to change the rules.

On the general scheme of this week's topic: You asked us to do the poll first (which i did), and then come back and comment on the topic. There are lots of consent issues, though, that don't involve a Master/slave relationship. In fact, i think most real-life people who practiced BDSM do so outside that context. So if this topic is to be limited to slaves and their owners, perhaps you might want to mention that. If not, the poll is probably not relevant to most people.

The main thing i wanted to say about the poll questions is that while i feel a slave owner might have the "right" to demand certain things of a slave, i don't necessarily think a wise person would make such demands, or commit to someone who might make such demands. If one feels the need to keep oneself hidden (e.g., to outwardly convert to another's religion, but inwardly not believe it) in order to have any self-identity, that's an unhealthy relationship, in my opinion.

Peace
firebaby

When I consent to something, that is for then. Consenting to something today, could very well become something we very well hate at a later date.

I look at consent like "pushing limits" - things change and many times it's due to who we are with. There may be some things we will consent to with one dominant that we would never consent to with someone else, which is due to the trust we have in that person.

<< 5) A dominant has the right to control when, where, how and IF the slave gets to see friends or family.>>

I think such as this would depend on the situation. We all know or know of people good and bad, be it family or friends. I don't feel my dominant would ever say "NO communication whatsoever" unless it was really bad circumstances and then she would be doing it in my best interest. The same if she said, don't take someone's call for a certain amount of time or whatever.. it would be for my best interest.

<< 9) In a consenting BDSM relationship, which do you think is best:
That the dom have the final word on how far the BDSM will go
That the sub have the final word on how far the BDSM will go >>

This should be worked out between the two. There may be a time when the dominant takes things way too far and the submissive has to call the shots (so to speak)Safewords, yes?

<< 10) Should a sub be concerned about consent on the part of the dominant? >>

YES! Dominants have limits as well as submissives and those limits should be respected by the submissive just as we would want OURS to be respected by the dominant.

Steel

I am not trying to be a wordsmith here Gloria, but the first distinction to me is that its INFORMED consent.

Do both parties no what is being consented to? i.e., have a working knowledge of the subject

Are both parties free and uninhibited by drugs, alcohol or emotional matters that may cloud judgment? If the submissive is restrained to a piece of equipment, now is probably not the time for the dominant to ask for consent to anything new. If the submissive has given up their hands and feet, they have put their life on the line that their consent (and trust) have been clearly communicated and understood and will be honored.

I recently played with three ladies in the same night in Asheville, North Carolina. I had known the first for 11 years, being that she was the lady that had brought me "in". Consent to be flogged took, oh at least, seconds. Ever think about all the different things that someone can be "flogged" with? It went well and finally ended when she started to slide down the wall. The second is owned by me. Do I seek consent each and everytime I play with gloria? Nope. I know her reactions/limits/ablilities. The absolute hardest that we have played anytime recently was the hour we had all of a sudden when a noted author had called to ask if our lunch appointment could be moved back an hour. She cried several times throughout that session. Did I seek consent to make her cry? Nope. The third person I sessioned with that night was someone who has wanted to play with me for sometime. We went over what she was interested in, and what she wanted none of.

Every person that answers this question here and at other points during their time in BDSM will answer at the very least, slightly different. I personally have looked at several check lists and used bits of a couple of them, but never an entire check list for consent. Consent is not static. Because I own gloria, I DID make her register and vote in the last election, but did not tell her how to vote. She is a human being and God knows, she has her own points of view. I do not wish to own a robot. Blanket consent with a few exceptions is a crock. Contractual consent, such as a slave contract may note that all parties were of the same mind on the same day, but for legal purposes, not much more. These type of contracts are held together by honor of the parties involved. I guess thats where my view on consent comes in. Consent to me is between two (or more) people who have trust that the others word is good. It need not be something that need be notorized or a ten page form filled out in triplicate. The first and most important part of consent is knowing who you be consenting too. I know that this is not always possible, so there is a need for more stringet levels of consent, but I hope that things do not progress much further along the path that they have gone over the last couple of years.....which is to say that I hope things do not continue so that soon we have a book entitled "BDSM For Dummies". Honor+trust+respect+integrity=consent.

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
    With
Poodle Flair

45
Here are my comments on a couple of questions that didn't have answers that clearly fit my position:

"A dominant has the right to control when, where, how and IF the slave gets to see friends or family."
The when and where, maybe. "If" I have major problems with. If the dominant has problems with one specific person, then that can be worked out, but cutting someone off from their other loved ones...*ick*

"Brainwashing, hypnotism, and other extreme forms of mind control are consensual acts."
Hypnotism itself isn't inherently bad, and could perhaps even be used consentually in some contexts (I'm not an expert though). Using hypnotism, brainwashing, and the like to try to force one's partner into BDSM, or go past a stated limit, is horrid, IMHO.
    
"I have in the past, or might in the future, be willing to explore BDSM with the following"
No minors or animals period, IMHO. For crimes, substance abuse, and psychological disorders, it depends upon the severity and details of the problem. Someone who has problems with depression or mild OCD, for example, would probably be fine. Someone who is severely schizophrenic or delusional may be incapable of giving consent. Someone who is a recovering alcoholic might present very little problem. If someone is drunk or high during play, they may be incapable of consenting.

"In a consenting BDSM relationship, which do you think is best"
I think that whichever partner has the more stringent limits on any specific activity needs to be the deciding person. I have been in situations where my partner was up for more than I was. He had to respect my limits. I think that the repercussions can be worse in having a submissive go past their limits, but it's not cool either way.

**This is being crossposted here (from the Polling Lounge), since I thought Lady Sierra's observations would fit right in. --GGB**

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Lady Sierra 2001-10-09 10:29

Interesting poll.
Comments:

2) All adult consent is equal. For example, when a 25-year-old gives consent it's the same as when a 65-year-old gives consent.

I personally do not play with anyone younger than 25. When someone states that they are willing to comply with an act, it is legitimate to assume that the consent they are giving carries the same weight regardless of age. But I find play more fulfilling when someone has had more life experience and I feel that they may better understand the world they are about to enter into.

3) It's okay to make a slave vote for the dominant's choice of political candidates.
   
4) A dominant has the right to convert a slave to his or her religion.
     
5) A dominant has the right to control when, where, how and IF the slave gets to see friends or family.

We banter about the term "slave" far too casually in BDSM. I am not above using the word in session to heighten the verbal exchange but I do not mean it in the purest sense. A slave is owned and in being owned does not have rights. If we take the meaning of slave as it is defined, then all of the above should be possible. As a Dominant, personally, I find changing the basic tenets and values that my sub would base their life on to be unthinkable. As was pointed out in the last survey, finding someone that shares your values is one criteria for finding a partner that 3/4 of those surveyed found relevant.
   
6) Brainwashing, hypnotism, and other extreme forms of mind control are consensual acts.
   
I had trouble with the way this was stated. I do like mind control techniques and doing scenes involving interrogation and "mind fucks". It is when it is categorized as "extreme" that I had a difficult time answering. In the right setting, I do not find these activities to be extreme.
    
7) I have in the past, or might in the future, be willing to explore BDSM with the following...:
   
For these categories, for me to explore BDSM with someone who has committed a crime, it would depend on the crime and most of America seems to suffer from some mild form of mental disorder at some time in their life. A recent statement on the news is that 40% of Americans are suffering from depression due to the rapidly developing events of the past month.
   
8) In a consenting BDSM relationship, which upsets you more: Discovering that the dominant has been lying and leading the sub on or discovering that the sub has been lying and leading the dom on

Dishonesty negates trust, which is the basis of a BDSM relationship. Doesn't matter who perpetrates the lies.
  
9) In a consenting BDSM relationship, which do you think is best...Sub or Dom has final word on consent.

Consent is given; if it is taken then it is not consensual.

10) Should a sub be concerned about consent on the part of the dominant?

Consent is mutual. And I will not engage in any activity that I do not agree to.

As far as consent in general, in my relationships I designate hard limits and soft limits. Hard limits are activities that will never be consented to and soft limits are activities that are disliked but do not violate any trust issue if they are pushed. I want to take my subs places they never dreamed off, mentally, physically, and spiritually. My subs have a safe word in most instances, so if they feel in danger any activity is stopped. But I feel some consent is implied in their trust in me. That is what makes BDSM exciting to me and hopefully to them that I may hurt them but I will never harm them. I will make them endure what they thought they couldn't.

Dear Lady Sierra,
You put the consent with respect to hypnosis and other "mind fuck" methods better than I did. I don't think that mind fucks are wrong, but *using* them to obtain the consent in the first place is wrong. Does that make sense? :)

Opalescent,
It makes sense to me. ;)

This is truly interesting because the boundaries of consent confuse me so much.

I cannot be a slave. It might be because the history of slavery as commerce and insitution is such a part of my professional life. The heart of true slavery has always been that it is =not= consensual, and depends upon force, whether overt or implicit, that force can always be used to enforce the status, force that is backed by every legal instrument. Which in this world, connot be.

The knowledge of millennia of suffering individuals just blocks my mind from going there.

Which probably also has a lot to do with how hard it is for me to be even a good submissive, though I am submissive to the bone.

Thaien

To me the true meaning of consent is total uncritical submission. I guess I would not have submitted in the first place unless I trusted the domme, but I have now been passed between several dommes - and submitted to their partners too - without at any time demanding to negotiate limits or whatever. I decided nearly four years ago that I would be a lifestyle sub like Polly Peachum, and never looked back. I soon get to worship my current domme, and am always devastated when she passes me on, but would never question her right to do this. So I am rather useless at discussing the pros and cons of different lifestyles, as this is the only one for me. I have been lucky always to have been a live-in slave.

From: Thorn4MyRose
(general posting)

Great topic (as usual)...and some exceptional insight in the comments posted.

My view of 'consent' has consistently been pretty simple: Granting it does indeed always mean 'yes' to whatever the requirement may be.

If a slave thinks ANY requirement is inappropriate, or desires to say 'no' for whatever reason, then s/he's always free to WITHDRAW consent and be on their way. It's the one irrefutable right s/he retains as a slave if we are to be able to factually state that we're being safe, sane and consenting...as well as being part of what differentiates the beauty of 'BDSM slavery' from the illegal, historical and completely unrelated version.

Be safe,
Thorn

Wow! Thorn, you are a truly gifted writer and insightful person. While I share your view of "one irrefutable right", I am struggling to get to that stage in my relationship with my sub, youngman. From what I have read (and what I have kindly informed him of), it can take years. Being a naturally dominant woman and an Aries, I have little patience in waiting for the hard work to pay off. Any tips on how I can make the time (at least seem to) go by any faster?

Autumn

From: Thorn4MyRose
To: sweetiedomme

Thank you for the kind thoughts, Autumn. Rather than get off topic here, I'll start a thread on the dominant's board and we can pick up your question there. :-)

Regards,
T.

The key here is Trust. My Mistress talked to me and had me answer honestly questions about my life, needs, desires, etc. She has brought me further along than i thought i could ever be. i have done things that once i never would have consented to. The reason is that i trust my Mistress with my body and mind. Once i was able to recognize that and trust Her commands, i was able to mentally stop fighting, relax, obey and grow as a slave. Consenting with trust and knowledge that my Mistress is concerned about the well being of Her slave has given me great freedom.

The true meaning of consent ????? A question whose answer has changed for me since i first became involved in this lifestyle.

The answer has changed because i have changed ... and i am of the personal opinion that it will continue to change for me as i redefine my meaning of both true and consent as well as continue the journey to me.

I remember attending a workshop on submissiveness when i had been in the beginning of my quest for knowledge of what BDSM meant. One of the things that was discussed was the infamous "checklist" that we were all asked to complete.

As a note of humor here .... i want to make all of you aware that i was fortunate enough to receive the honor of being the most naive ... inexperienced ... and clueless submissive female the entire group had ever encountered. Some honor huh ... lol.

i mention this because the truth of the matter was that i thought that i understood the meaning of consent and felt that with the right person "whoever i might think the right person was" i would consent to whatever his desires were.

Looking back i realize just how ridiculous an idea that was. How in the world i thought that i could possibly believe that i would/should/could consent to things that i had no experience with .... no idea what they were ... is still a wonder to me.

Three years later i still want to believe that i would consent ..... unconditionally .... to whatever ... with the right person .... but i have to admit that i really do not know what the full extent of that belief might bring my way.

Is true consent allowing or agreeing to something that you do not fully understand .... is it allowing or agreeing to ride the crest of the unknown with someone who you trust and who has taken the time to know you in a way that you do not even know yourself ..... is it allowing or agreeing to journey together .... learning and trusting more as the journey continues ..... is it allowing or agreeing to be open to discovering with another that which allows each to be true to who and what they are ????

i believe that it is all of these ... in varying degrees and at different levels of a relationship. True consent can never be in a new relationship for there is too much that is missing in trust ... communication ... knowledge of each other .... and knowledge of the experiences of each other.

Do we ever know all that we need to know in order to truly consent .... perhaps in time ....