Before actually getting into this topic, I would like to offer the following important caution:

This subject will offer the opportunity to discuss an activity which is in a category known in BDSM parlance as 'edge play'. It deals with simulating an extreme and very intense physio-emotional scenario between consenting adults in a controlled manner. Though it may seem obvious, I think it's still responsible to point out as part of this introduction that this form of edge play is based on orchestrating a fantasy in a (relatively) safe way; and NOT condoning nor encouraging a despicable and criminal act.

Everyone has their own notion(s) about what constitutes a 'rape scene'. Some just classify it as just 'tearing through clothing and having ultra-rough sex' while others might incorporate elements from an extremely long list that includes (as examples) 'coercion', deep mindfucking, severe humiliation, abduction, multiple partners (including gangbangs), hard punishment (including beating), 'forced' bisexuality, knife play, electrical play, breath play, heavy restraint -- basically most forms of kink that would be considered right out on the outer boundary of ANYONE'S ethical, physical and emotional limits (hence the term 'edge').

So, what are your thoughts about these kinds of scenes, EVEN in the form of pure fantasy (or speculation, if you've never tried one)? Beyond the obvious common issues of requiring highly established trust and deep control of all elements involved, what factors would you say need to be considered in both explaining your view of this type of scene as well as what you might discuss with someone you're interested in trying it with? For that matter, what points do you feel are important if you feel these kinds of scenes should be cautioned, discouraged or even prevented (if you feel that strongly about it)?

ALL points of view, questions and personal examples on this topic are highly encouraged -- and I hope will be respected regardless of experience level or orientation. I know I don't really need to say this, but I think it's important to point out that, because of the potential volatility, tripping of emotional triggers and (no doubt) judgments that might be involved in this discussion, a little extra consideration should be put into ensuring the TONE of any responses can be clearly understood. I only say it because I know *I'm* particularly guilty often of knocking out replies without giving much thought to the fact that people cannot see my expressions or hear a particular emotion in the wording. (I'm working at it) :-)

Be safe,
Thorn

um.

Not a very insightful comment, but I always found it kind of amusing that I hear a lot that sexual fantasies of being raped/forced/whatever were common among women, when mine usually went the other way. *grin*

As far as thoughts on them... I wonder sometimes if sub men are a little less easily squicked by this. I'm not saying that mock rape isn't heavy psychological play by any means, but I often find male doms and female submissives very cautious in this area, while I find that male subs are more apt to just dive in to this fantasy. (unless they are the type who are totally put off by anal play, that is.)

I wonder if it's because.. well, as women, we're often told of the dangers of real rape... and many of us *have* been, unfortunately, raped by real men. Whereas a male who fantasizes about being taken against his will by a dildo-strapping dominatrix has probably never been raped by a packing female *g*, or told constantly by society that he must beware of such.

*shrug* Not sure about that, but it sounds sensible at the moment. Anyone else have any thoughts?

I did a rape scene with my first Dom over 10 years ago.
At one point when I was mock struggling with him, he slapped my face. Only on this posting board can I say that the slap sent me into the most mind blowing orgasm I have ever had. When it was over, he spent hours stroking my face where he hit me. He was a little freaked out by the slap and wanted to make sure that I was OK. I let him know that I was very OK. We had built up a tremendous amount of trust at that point and I knew that he would never intentionally hurt me. It fit in with the scene, it didn't hurt and I got immense pleasure from it. I like rape scenes. And, I've been the victim of rape too. Rape scenes and real rape have nothing to do with each other. If anything, mock rape scenes give me a sense of power and pleasure that goes a long way towards dimming any unpleasant memories of being violated. My body belongs to me. When I play with a Dom, I give it to him for the duration of the play, and he gives me great pleasure. When it's over, nothing has been taken - but so much has been shared.

I've not experienced a rape scene(yet), although I have fantasized about it.Knowing that this fanasy was in my head made me wonder why.So I asked questions of others and what I was finally told was very enlightening to me.(and made perfect sense)
Being one who has been raped on two seperate occassions,this scene would give me control over it in ways that I didn't have when they were real.I guess kind of a theraputic way to reinact and move on.
Now,I also am bi curious so Master and I discussed the possiblity of a forced bi rape,with Him orchestrating the whole thing(and I'm sure helping in His devious little ways <G>).Since it IS a big deal,He would be there the whole time to make sure that I didn't go off "the deep end".We've discussed it for quite a few months..and now He now feels I'm ready so it's a "work in progress".
I'm sure I'll live thru it and grow,cos isn't that what it's all about? :)

Jewel

Hi Thorn and thank you for the cautions and warnings along with the questions. :)

i've never been raped, thank goodness. So i can only imagine how horrible of a crime it is and my heart goes out to those who have actually gone through it.

However, (here we go).. rape fantasies were some of the very first fantasies as a child that i had. i always masturbated to and always had several orgasms during these fantasies. (still do)

My Dom and i had discussed this on several occasions. It was rather odd and i hope others can relate. my Dom would tell me how some of his thoughts and fantasies scared him sometimes. That maybe i didn't understand exactly how "rough" he meant. On the other hand, i would be trying to convince him that i did understand because i felt the same way only opposite. That no matter how rough or played out this would be, it was something i felt was part of me, that i needed it, needed to follow through with it, because it was inside me. Needing to be released. I knew there would be a lot of emotions set free that night.. if ever that night was to come. (which it hasn't to this day) We just didn't know what kind of emotions. i believe with all my heart that we were both ready. The trust was there, the communication was there...it just...
wasn't time.

i believe that in some cases that there is a very real need for a rape scene to occur other than just for the "thrill" of it. Both from a Dom side as well as a sub side. I'm sure there are various reasons. i haven't figured out why i feel so strongly that this happen.. but i do. It's a craving inside me, a need to have so to speak. i know without a doubt that it would not be the same if it was either real or played out as real. By played out as real i mean planned out without my knowledge.

This subject i find very emotional and draining for some reason... even to type about. It sends my head spinning, mind racing, thinking, wanting, craving....the same feelings i get from thinking about cutting, biting to the point of blood, knife play..heck things that at least i consider to be edge play.

i probably shouldn't think about it anymore right now.. :)

Thank you Thorn for the great question.
I can't wait to read more and for some more Dom's to chime in. :)

Trinity, very interesting and your right from what i've heard. Can't wait to hear from sub men as well. <g>

~chris

Thorn,

I have thought about this all weekend, not wanting to chime in with "half" thoughts. "Rape", as a role-playing scene, can be as intense as any scene you are ever likely to have. It can be a "trip" that can lead to great amounts of pleasure, or, it can lead to disaster. I have had both.

IMX, there has to be communication between the two parties...communication that is as intense as the scene that is about to be played. Communication about everything...and even then, there can be things that lurk in the background, of which neither is aware, that can lead such a scene to disaster.

janiece and I decided to play such a scene one night. We had discussed this subject many times and I had attempted to extract every little piece of information I could in areas that I felt might be "problematic". No, she had never been "raped" in real life, there was no problem with "knives", because we regularly played with them, some used to take wax off her body, some used to cut clothing away, and, yes, one which I even use to spank her and for other types of sensation play. A "knife" was not a "problem". I tried to explore "everything" that might lead to disaster. I still got "bit" in the ass, despite the care I took in attempting to cover all the bases. There was something that "lurked" that neither of us thought about.

We went to a small restaurant, one of our favorite "quiet" places and had a leisurely dinner. To get us both in a little headspace I carped a bit about having dated her for quite a while and never getting "any". She was properly coy and playful, teasing, and everything seemed to be moving along quite nicely, each in our respective "headspace". We left and when we got into the car I pulled a knife and told her I was going to get "some", because I was going to "take" it. All according to the script. I cuffed her hands with a pair of "safety" cuffs, cuffs that can be removed by the wearer by pushing on a small tab and the cuffs fall away, and belted her in her seat.

I was watching her very, very carefully...looking for something, anything, that seemed amiss. It was not until we got home and I got her in the bedroom that things began to go "south". I noticed, immediately, that her reactions were totally out of tune for the scene. Rather than playing "scared", she was scared. That had never happened. We had played on the "edge" many, many times and she always "trusted" that everything would be ok.

I stopped everything...crash stop. Held her, calmed her, and then we talked about what happened. It turned out that the "knife" was the problem...not really the "knife", but the context. Her "ex" was abusive and had threatened her with a weapon at one time and, although she had not even really remembered the incident enough to discuss it with me when we talked about the "scene", it all came crashing back as we "played out" the scene.

After dinner at a restaurant, it seemed, they had gotten into an argument that ended with him threatening
her with a weapon. Too damn many similarities. It all came back with a rush and caused her reaction. That is over, now, with no real "damage" done, but she is aware of how things can "flashback", things that one does not even think about. Therein lies the danger in extremely "intense" scenes. Yes, I still "rape" her, but not after dinner at a restaurant and not using a "knife", although we still use them in many other contexts.

A lesson learned and passed on in hopes that others will, likewise learn, but, perhaps, without the trauma.

Knyghtflyher

to gatesliljewel - Rape scenes, for me, are therapeutic.
Good luck to you.

I don't have any original thoughts to add to this thread, but I'd like to ask a question to ppl who have done this or are planning to. How well do you need to know somebody before attempting a scene like this? How do you know when the relationship is at that point?
I'm not planning on doing it myself, but I am curious about what (for me) is such an extreme form of edgeplay.

Here is my viewpoint, for what it's worth.

Yes, I have often fantasized a rape scene. In fact, I've used it in the past to achieve orgasm during sex. But I don't fantasize the violence aspect of a real rape. What I seem to hone in on is the feeling of being ravished by one or more persons. To be the total focus of their desire and passion. That being said, when my Dom and I make love he TAKES me without my apparent consent (although I'm loving it :-) He throws me on the bed, ties me down as I violently struggle back, gags me and blindfolds me and violently fucks me. And the more I feel him out of control the more it turns me on. (He's never really out of control, as I'm sure you know by now he's a total control freak :-)

I guess that's "on the edge", you might say, but I trust him completely, and that's the key.

It seems like the harder he attacks and thrusts into me the more powerful my orgasm. He's also said I scream too loud, so he's looking for a more effective gag <vbg> Of course it helps that we both know each other so well that we know what turns each other on and we know each others limits.

In summary, before anybody attempts a rape scene I would suggest that they make sure that they know each other extremely well.

goldi

I think you need to know the person very well. There has to be a significant amount of trust established.
You need to know that you are in the hands of a Dom that understands your needs, knows your limits, and can tend to you for hours, even days afterwards.

To: Trinity

You've raised an EXCEPTIONAL aspect of this subject in your posting (and, I suspect you're right as to the reasoning why it seems to be such a one-sided 'hot button').

Perhaps we'll see some postings addressing thoughts on 'male-rape scenes' as this progresses, but regardless, would it be a fair question to ask how do YOU approach it? (I ask only because you indicated that you had some feelings about this from a female-dominant point of view.) :-)

Be safe,
Thorn

To: sweetbottom

Your posting (#3 as it shows on my screen) was probably one of the most exceptional and succinct explanations of both the allure and reality of such scenes that I've seen (not to mention how lucidly you showed an example of the difference between what we're talking about here vs. a criminal act).

In one paragraph, you hit the salient details solidly. I (for one) thank you for sharing those thoughts and that experience here. I imagine a LOT of people connected squarely with what you wrote.

Be safe,
Thorn

To: ckim25

Thank you, chris, for sharing your thoughts as well. Obviously they are very personal to you. :-)

I think you brought up a very important point regarding how two people in a relationship might both fantasize about this sort of scene, but still be apprehensive in acting on it (for a variety of reasons). Even though they may be on the same page and know each other well, I think it's actually MORE important that they know THEMSELVES clearly FIRST. If either (particularly the dominant) has concerns or fears about how they'll PERSONALLY react during any sort of edge play, but specifically a rape scene in this case, then I think they're right not to rush into it. I also think, however, that many people view it as 'hard to build up to' because of the intensity and dynamic involved. It appears on the surface to be a 'do it -- or don't do it' sort of thing. So, they may know their partner's up for it but be lacking confidence themselves -- and not know how to go about building it. Interesting dilemma, isn't it? :-)

Be safe,
Thorn

PS: As a clarification, the reason I said 'particularly the dominant' above is because they have to be in complete control of the scene. I wasn't denigrating the need for the submissive to clearly know themselves -- which is obviously important. :-)

To: knyghtflyher (with regards to janiece)

All I can say, Ron, is that your post has to be one of clearest examples I've come across of what a dominant has to deal with in this type of scene. Thanks for both sharing such an intimate part of your experience with janiece here as well as pointing out one of the most prevalent pitfalls associated in trying to execute this safely.

I share your hope that others will gain something from what you wrote without having to experience the bump firsthand. I also, however, hope they clearly see what a dominant BEING IN CONTROL during a scene means -- and how even when a scene 'goes south' (as you put it), taking the proper steps to close it out positively can actually make what seems like a failure into a success (in terms of what it builds towards the future). ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

To: ultraviolet

You asked a couple of excellent questions there (which are being addressed in other posts), but here's one for you:

You stated that you're not planning on doing this sort of scene, yet you're still trying to define for yourself what would be edge play. Not knowing that then, is there a particular reason why you have already discounted rape scenes? (If that's too personal, then please just disregard.)

Be safe,
Thorn

To: goldilocks

Your dominant is a 'control freak'? Nahh. Say it aint so. <humorously intended, of course>

You said something in your post that really struck a chord -- and perhaps you'd feel comfortable in explaining your view a bit further. You noted that you love to feel he's 'out of control', but yet you fully realize he's completely IN control. Just for the sake of those who may read the board and see that as a contradiction, might you explain how that kind of ironic circumstance works for you?

Be safe,
Thorn

Thorn asked:

<< You noted that you love to feel he's 'out of control', but yet you fully realize he's completely IN control. Just for the sake of those who may read the board and see that as a contradiction, might you explain how that kind of ironic circumstance works for you? >>

I'll try…first please realize that I know in my heart that my Dom is ALWAYS in control. I have no doubts whatsoever. Secondly, sometime during the early stages of the scene, my Dom is replaced by another, purely fictional, ill-defined character--a stranger who's only reason for existence is to ravish me and my body! (A power-trip for me--but that's another subject <bg>) As this stranger gets closer and closer to orgasm, I feel him begin to lose control. He squeezes me tighter and tighter, so that I can barely breathe. His body becomes more and more rigid, etc. He might even begin to shake. At this point, I begin fantasizing that my stranger is no longer under his own control (but actually under mine!) This gives me a rush that literally turbocharges my orgasm. So I guess it's a combo of what I know in my heart (trust) and what I think in my head (fantasy) that makes me feel like my Dom is out of control while being in control :-)

 I know that sounds like a contradiction, still, but it's the only way I know how to explain it. It's really hard to put feelings like these into words, because these feelings are on all different emotional levels and are sometimes vague or even transient. However, this whole subject is something that I would NEVER discuss with anyone in the “vanilla” world, even with my best friend or family members. As Trinity so astutely pointed out, women are warned repeatedly of the dangers of rape, and rape is a totally criminal act of violence, and there are some people out there who have had the misfortune of being victims of this hideous act. Because of this, I still feel guilty about my rape fantasies. In addition, any female who expressed her fantasizes about rape would be immediately stigmatized by our "vanilla" society. This is the main thing that still bothers me about all of this. I'm just grateful that I have a forum where I can express myself without fear of recrimination :-)

I'm wondering if any other fem subs are struggling with feelings of guilt?

goldi

Never.

I've survived rape twice. I will carry the physical and emotional scars to my grave.

I will unhesitatingly murder anyone, anywhere who commits or attempts rape against me or anyone else (should I overhear/see it in progress).

"Edge play?" No. Power and trust and consensuality are communicated and celebrated without it. No form of rape is an act of love.

To: goldilocks (with regards to your dominant)

Thank you, goldi, for taking the time to articulate something that IS no doubt very difficult to put into words. Frankly, I think you did it quite nicely.

And yes, I agree that this forum is a very powerful tool as an outlet for thought and discussion that might never take place anywhere else. I hope your use of it encourages others to share their feelings here as well -- and perhaps release a little burden/guilt that does them no good whatsoever.

Feeling guilty about feeling good takes so much away from the experience...and possibly even undermines it to the point of destroying it. And wouldn't THAT be a terrible waste? ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

To: trisha (with regards to Susan, who I hope is doing well)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Obviously you have a very solid position on this subject -- and I certainly respect your view. I know many 'lifestylers' who feel precisely the same as you; just as I know many who are convinced of the opposite. A classic example illustrating the concept that there's no such thing as a universal, one-size-fits-all answer. Wouldn't you agree? :-)

Be safe,
Thorn

Thorn said "You stated that you're not planning on doing this sort of scene, yet you're still trying to define for yourself what would be edge play. Not knowing that then, is there a particular reason why you have already discounted rape scenes?"
I have not yet discounted it totally, but I wouldn't try it in the near future. It is difficult to say why. In fact I spent a great deal of time trying to think of an answer to your question. In the end, I couldn't find any reason except that I wouldn't be comfortable with it. I guess it's just the way differnt people are built.

"I'm wondering if any other fem subs are struggling with feelings of guilt?"
It is different for me, because I am a female who is sub to another female, so the same guilt factor is not there for me. I used to feel very guilty when at a young age I fantasized about women who forced sex on other women. I thought I must hate myself and other women! I have since learned the difference between reality and fantasy.

Indeed, Thorn - the very uniqueness of BDSM is that we cherish our diversity; no one being cast out over a personal perception.

I cannot change my views on rape in any context - yet I can intelligently empathize with the other perspectives communicated here unhesitatingly. As an example, the fantasy ravishment scene is lightyears from any connectiveness to the horror I survived; similarly, deep mindfucking and the like.

(smiling)

We are indeed not "one-size-fits-all." The empowerment created with absolute surrender (albeit to submission or Dominance) necessitates a level of trust that is incomprehensible to the vanilla - and from such trust, complete awakening and realization of the individuals' personnaes involved is initiated and challenged to grow mutually.

Susan (who is doing well; thank you) often went "far beyond the edge" together with me; yet we never allowed any awakening of the triggers that would immerse me again into what I felt was/is the event horizon boundary of the rapes.

Absolutely, that we adventure to begin at the outer markers of our consciousness and needs - perhaps all BDSM is edge play to outsiders; and that mastery in Dominance is clearly shown in this thread with the "crash stop" because of absolute focus and love; there is even healing and exploration past other wounds.

Fantasy and reality are delinated with a gossamer veil, indeed...

Always;
Trisha

Okay..so why all of a sudden do I feel bad about this fantasy????

Jewel#2

In response to Thorns' excellent question at the top of this thread.

Rape is a form of violence. Normal people do not want violence done to them. The type of fantasy being discussed here is more usually refered to as a "Force Fantasy" (see http://www.ForceFantasies.com ). Feel free to call it anything you want, but be aware that if you use the "R" word you're going to freak out the vanillas. They really become unglued. If you call it a Force fantasy you won't cause the vanillas as much distress.

Here's a few observations on running a FF (Force Fantasy) scene in particular, or anything that you consider "edge" play.

You're _not_ playing on the edge, you're over it. The emotional intensity is not just a little more, it's of a totally different nature. The sub is now in a head space where their life is in danger. The sub in a D/s scene is thinking along the lines of submission, domination, slave, etc. In an edge scene the sub is thinking that they are going to _die_. This is _not_ a more intense D/s scene. It is a whole different kind of scene altogether.

As a Dom, this is the biggest concept you have to get your head around.

Expect the scene to go bad. Count on it. If you're lucky it won't.

Just like the first time a vanilla steps into the D/s world, take a sub into the edge world _very_ slowly. The Dom has as much to learn about this head-space as the sub, maybe more.

People in general, and women in particular, are subject to enormous amounts of violence in all kinds of variations. Each person will deal with this life violence in different ways, most of which result in them "forgetting" the violent experience. (Technically it's called "repression", or "denial", or "reaction formation", etc.) How that particular person responds to these "forgotten" events during an edge scene is going to surprise the heck out of you.

Do not assume that a subs' behavior in a D/s scene is in any way related to their behavior in an edge scene. A sub that just melts in your arms in a D/s scene (the so-called "swooning subs") will turn into a wild "struggle sub" in an edge scene. She'll come at you with elbows swinging, claws at your eyes, teeth at your throat. You better brush up on your jiu-jitsu and tae-kwan-do for this. (Trust me, I'm married to one of those :-)

Gook luck with safewords. Between the hormones, the adrenalin and the "I'm going to die" head-space the odds of a sub getting a safeword out is pretty slim. If you can't tell when your sub _needs_ to safeword _before_ they safeword then neither of you is ready for edge play. Stop the scene. Back off, try something simpler and work your way up slowly.

Do the scene in pieces, and do it backwards. If the fantasy is to be taken from a mall parking lot, stuffed into a bag, tossed into a warehouse, raped at gunpoint and then left bound to a dumpster for some homeless to find then begin at the end. First do a scene with just the "bound to the dumpster" part. Get comfortable with that scene. Then do the "raped" and left bound to the dumpster" parts. Keep adding pieces of the fantasy little by little until you can do the whole scene in one pass without _either_ Dom or sub freaking out.

Yes, Doms need to safeword too. Doms have our own hormones, adrenalin and past experiences with violence to deal with. As a Dom you will have your own basket of issues to handle while the scene is going on. Doms _will_ experience feelings they've never had in a D/s scene, especially if the sub is somebody you love. Make it clear to the sub that the _Dom_ may have to safeword out of the scene. The worst thing that can happen is for the Dom to be too proud to safeword, be off in some adrenalin-blinded head space, and then the sub needs to safeword and the Dom is too freaked out to help.

Safeword early, safeword often.

If you safeword out of a scene early, you will always be able to try the scene again tomorrow. It is an option without penalty. If you safeword too late, you may never play again. Heck, somebody could die. No, really.

There's a lot of stuff I haven't covered, but this is a good start. If either Dom or sub has _any_ questions about edge play, toss them out here for everybody to comment on. Do not play a scene until _all_ doubts and questions have been answered.

TooLoose :-)

Jewel#2 [does that mean I get to be Jewel#1? ;) ], I don't think anyone should have to feel bad about having this fantasy - my BDSM world involves a lot of translating non-consensual fantasy into consensual reality. Objectively, consensual 'rape' is no worse than consensual beatings.

However ...... I would say that it does raise some uncomfortable feelings in me. Like many people I've had experience of sexual assaults, and it does worry me that any that felt like recreation of those events could upset me. I have played with this fantasy before and it has been OK, but I'm cautious. In actual practice I sometimes find that it's little things which set off bad memories.

I do remember one occasion when someone tried to rape me [non-consensually] and I seemed to be overcome with a violent rage and energy. I didn't know that was in me - sometimes it's scary to see what's on the inside. I know BDSM often involves looking at the inside but I tend to like to be selective :). I certainly don't want to risk recreating THAT emotion.

To: Jewel

Well, with all this 'Jewel-ry' around, it certainly does class up the place even more. <g>

Seriously, I think your comment to 'liljewel' regarding getting past the 'guilt' has a lot of merit. What I always try to add to that, however, is a simple, empowering question that puts such guilt in proper perspective. Can you think of what that question might be? (That's rhetorical...I know you can.) ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

Thanks..and yes,you can be Jewel #1 hehehe

Jewel #2

To: ultraviolet

Thank you for at least giving the question some serious consideration. Comfort zones are indeed tough to expand, so I completely understand your position. I'm glad you felt comfortable enough to share your thoughts here though. :-)

Be safe,
Thorn

To: TooLoose

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this subject...and certainly for providing some good food for thought. :-)

I have to ask (semi-seriously, actually): Do ALL Marines learn to plan everything backwards? You're the umpteenth Marine I've run into espousing that philosophy. I'm not knocking the technique, particularly due to the value of starting with a clear result already in mind, but I'm just curious if it's a common doctrinal thing in the Corps.

Regarding the other parts of your post, I wonder if you'd perhaps feel comfortable relating an anecdote or two from a successful 'forced' experience you've administered (and maybe even a less-than-successful one, if you think it's relelvant).

Be safe,
Thorn

trisha said:

>> "Edge play?" No. Power and trust and consensuality are communicated and celebrated
>> without it. No form of rape is an act of love.

I agree with you completely. If I ever gave you, or anybody else the impression that I believe otherwise on this subject I apologize completely. I refuse to use the "R" word in the context of the D/s relationship I have with my wife. What we do is nothing more than a very active form of ravishment. At no point is there ever any violence commited, or expected. If any violence is ever present, then it is clearly a crime. Without question.

I am terribly sorry for the hardships you've experienced, and am grateful for the time you've taken to post on this board and your willingness to share.

------------------------------

Thorn said:

>> I have to ask (semi-seriously, actually): Do ALL Marines learn to plan everything
>> backwards?

<lol> I guess :-)

>> You're the umpteenth Marine ...

On a personal note, I have never had the honor of serving my country in any official capacity. I have never been a serviceman, or peace officer of any kind. I was _raised_ by them though. First in Carmelite boarding schools, then a series of foster parents all of whom turned out to be active US Marines (well, except for one Air Force General) and then Jesuit Universites. A lot of good stuff was crammed down my resisting throat by all these folks, and although I never went to boot camp I can snap a salute and say "Yes, Sargeant Major, Sir" like the best of 'em :-)

>> ... I'm just curious if it's a common doctrinal thing in the Corps.

Dunno about Corps doctrine, but it is in every manual I ever read on planning, from tactical to strategic. It's not having the goal in mind which is the purpose of reverse excercise. It's the issue of "overload". It's less intellectual effort and emotional burden if you are comfortable with what happens _after_ you get over the current challenge. If you start at the beginning then the _entire_ burden of unknowns lies ahead of you, instead of behind you.

>> ... relating an anecdote or two from a successful 'forced' experience you've administered

I prefer the term "shared". It's something we do _together_ for the pleasure of both of us :-)

Well, let's see... Wifey has viscious elbows, approach from directly behind and never from the rear quarter. Approach quickly because if she hears you while in range of a backwards kick you will eat it big time <vbg>

Humor aside. I once dated a charming young lady whom I shall call H. She was quite a bit taller than me, and a total hardbody. Give her half the chance and she would have kicked my butt every which way but loose. A major part of her fantasy involved being hogtied in a bathtub with the water slowly filling the tub until she is forced to beg for release, at which point yours truly is supposed to enter at the last minute, ravish her and toss her back in the tub. (I've heard this part of a scene refered to as "breaking" the sub)

H insisted on being left alone in the tub, and would not even consider the use of a blindfold. (How many rules is this girl breaking here? :-) So we did the scene up to the part with the tub (snuck in the house, fought her till she was exhausted, etc.) and tossed her in the tub.

Then I put a blindfold on her. She went ballistic with fury. I waited till she ran out of steam and whispered in her ear something about me being in charge here and she would just have to deal with it. I fully expected her to freak at this point, suspecting a hard limit involving blindfolds, and I would have ended the scene right then and there, but she didn't. I turned on the water and made appropriate noises for her to _believe_ I had left her alone (which I didn't)

I was not going to continue past this point without the blindfold. I don't break the rules, ever. I just do a little "mind-fuck" to fool the sub into thinking I have broken the rules. I risked losing the scene had she hit a limit with the blindfold. Heck, I probably would have lost her as a girlfriend had she hit a limit.

The scene continued just fine. She hated me for the blindfold, but she loved me for the rest :-)

The point to the anecdote is that "edge play" is a complete violation of all the rules of "SSC" play. In order to make it work for all parties involved, the Dom has to be awfully creative, and a little bit paranoid about the scene going bad :-)

>> ... and maybe even a less-than-successful one, if you think it's relelvant

I think knyghtflyher presented a wonderful example of how a FF scene can go south should the sub snag on a "lurking" limit. My thanx to knyghtflyher for sharing what must have been a very difficult experience.

If I may point out that the Dom can also have a "lurking" hard limit that needs to be dealt with. The difficulty, of course, is that the Dom has to have the ability to safeword him or herself without the assistance of the sub.

As a human being I cannot see my own "lurking" limits. Nor can I know myself perfectly to the point where no part of my self is unknown to me. What I can do is recognize which situations present me an emotional challenge that _might_ affect my ability to think and react reasonably.

i.e.: I have strong emotional reactions to issues regarding child abuse (for reasons I'll gladly share privately but are off-topic here) Any news item on the subject, conversation amongst friends, even the "Amber alerts" on the freeway gets my anger flowing. I would love to take the "I am super-Dom" approach and pretend I can do anything, but I can not. Age-play in the context of D/s is something I will never do. I have never done it, so I can't tell you if I _would_ hit a limit there. I intend never to find out. I recognize that there is _something_ lurking there, an inability to tolerate even the _fantasy_ of harm to a child. Yes, I understand that "age-play" is just another fantasy, that it's just a variation of the same old "exchange of power" Nevertheless, my anger rises at the thought.

As a Dom I recognize this personal failing, and avoid any D/s situation where I may be presented with an "age-play" scene. Not because I know what I feel, but because I do _not_ know what I feel. As a Dom in a scene I must _always_ know what I feel if I wish to be in sufficient control to "pull the plug".

Any Dom considering an "edge play" scene might consider looking within to find what triggers their temper, and avoiding the triggers.

Whadya think?

-------------------------------

TooLoose :-)

To: TooLoose

Well, obviously I misinterpreted an earlier comment of yours about the Marines to mean that you were in that service at one point. Thank you for the clarification -- as well as your insight about the technique in question.

I couldn't agree more regarding your point(s) on a dominant needing to be clearly in control of/knowing themselves FIRST -- BEFORE trying these kinds of scenes. I once observed a scene-gone-bad (at a public club, no less) where a dominatrix suddenly snapped and literally almost killed her slave. When she first began to intensify the scene (which was supposed to be a fairly simple bondage/flogging scene), the people around actually thought it was just her intention to do so. It didn't really seem out of the ordinary -- people were even rooting her on -- until she got wound up to a point where she began ranting in a manner that showed she was clearly losing self-control; beating her slave to the point where bones were breaking. Once it was that obvious she had lost it, several of us intervened and (thankfully) no further damage was done. It turns out that she had been violently victimized in a group setting earlier in her life and the mental connection(s) to that experience came out suddenly in the club environment, causing her to 'fight back' fiercely (mentally turning the tables on the attack, so to speak). The 'trigger' was basically the people cheering for the extreme sadism unfolding. Simple as that.

Suffice it to say that even though she was fairly experienced and someone *I* would have said had her proverbial shit together, caution and contingency is STILL a primary need. If nothing else comes out of this discussion, I hope that point hits home. ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

On the 'working things backwards' concept:

a little refinement here. Its called 'contingency planning'. For tactical situations, you look at the things that can go wrong and plan your way around them.

For scening, do a 'worst case scenario' analysis. Once you've planned for the worst possible outcomes and have created your contingency plans, you should be in pretty good shape. With 'should' being the operative phrase.

Doing this right should definately give you a "paranoid" outlook on things. If it doesn't, you're not planning deeply enough.

I am all for knowing everything that you can and need to know. I am opposed to bdsm play or any other part of it being so scripted. It somehow looses its edge on page 6, paragraph 3, line 27, appendex C. I am not an advocate of rape play scenes, been there done that, got the T-shirt, not my thing. I work without the script, the SSC manual laying around, the "9" and the first "1" are not already dialed on the telephone. And I'm not into role play. I think that what is being described as edge play now (as opposed to the start of this thread) has no edge, though some of the idea's are hot. If this is the current state of edge play then I need to take my ball and go home.

Justin Medlin
The Mind Is The
World's Largest
Playground. Lets
Plat There

Justin,

Don't have a "real" script of the sort that "At 12:05 AM I am going to take leather thong 'A' (as listed in the parts list) and use it bind your right wrist to bedpost 'B' (see illustration L26)". Here is where, IMO, "consensual non-consent" comes into play.

janiece knows I happen to have a "role-playing" scene in mind. She will probably know the general "topic" of the scene and the general "parameters" and "limits"...such as "Struggle if you wish, fight me off if you can, BUT NO kicking Master in the cojones" etc...lol. Everything else is pretty much left up in the air, so to speak. The time, the circumstances, etc, etc., are left up to my whim and occur in my imagination long before the "scene" ever occurs. Having served in the military and seen combat, I know that "no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy"...there are ALWAYS unknowns.

That is where the "non-consent" comes in. She consents to the general scene and topic but does not "have" to consent to every "specific" action that will occur during the scene and could not because I don't know, for an absolute fact, how the scene will "play out". Her reactions, for example, are totally unknown, even to her. (Use my earlier post as an example of an "unknown") In fact, every scene we do contains "unknowns", from a spanking to a "role play" and, for that reason, there is, IMO, consensual non-consent.

Many times, the whole plan is "Come here...I feel like binding you and spanking that cute ass of yours"...lol. How that is going to be accomplished is totally "unknown".

Knyghtflyher

P.S. Will you be there Saturday??

Ron, In reverse order: Yep I will be there for the hands on rope demo with Catherine Gross :) In fact I paid Kat today lol. As to the rest, I am tired of being lectured on what is a "must" for any dominant considering taking a breath, what triggers I should be aware of, how I should provide aftercare, and what training I must have to be able to be a certified "dungeon monitor", all according to the unwritten, but apparently srtictly enforced "law" of SSC. Relating it back to the the quasi topic of "edge play", will someone please explain to me where the edge is at? And WHOA!! Before anyone goes off the deep end about the psycological factors, GRANTED. Edge play is supposed to PLAY on those without an overt sense of security being there. When I crank up my chain saw and touch it to the bottom......thats edge play. Well yes, of course its minus the blade, but the first one I showed her had the blade, the one I drug across her skin when she was blindfolded had the blade, yes I switched them, but by God I want her to fucking believe it is the one WITH the blade when I crank that puppy up. Now it should be granted that I should know if she has any particular phobia's to chainsawa or to the song "Lumberjack" by Jackqul, but damned if I am going to start with a sawed off manakin leg, tnen next time add a chain saw case, then the next time add a gas can and oil, then the next time gring in a toy plastic chain saw, then the next time bring in a chain saw blade. Screw that. Either the dominant has done their damn homework or they have not. Next freaking thing you know, there will be an associates degree in "edge play" included in the information that Sally Struthers spoke of.....but WAIT! Order that class in the next 15 minutes and get included at NO ADDITIONAL COST a free Dungeon Master Certification Course, AND the 100 Best Ways To Get Pigs To Fly Via the SSC method. It's about sweat, smoke, power, blood, fear, screaming, crying and holding all of those things either in your hand or placing them in someone else's hands. Its not about an acronym or some standard that no one else can define for you and while its certainly sexual its not all about foreplay. Sexual edge play? What is that? No condom, no lube, internal water sports? I have watched over the past 5 years as we have lowered the standard of play to the point that the only thing left to do is dig a hole and bury it like cable. And thats edge play? Fuckin A! Check please. Next it will be a 12 step program. Pardon the interruption, I was just reminded that I am so not into BDSM or about being SSC, I am Leather and there is a world and a half difference between the two.

Justin Medlin

ps: Its not directed at you Ron, you were just in the right place at the wrong time lol. See ya Sat :)

(grinning ear-to-ear...)

Chainsaws? That adds a distinct dimension to "being taken out to the woodpile!"

Nothing was ever scripted or rehearsed beforehand here - and Susan's fetish is for razor-sharp edged weapons (the larger and sharper the better). She weilds anything in our collection deftly, precisely, and with an extreme level of training.

Timely outburst.

Yeah I am all about razor sharp blades. In fact I have a private cutting class this Sat with scalpels for the purpose of feeding, that is to cut someone with the intent, drive and purpose of drinking their blood.

Timely? You think? It has built for several years now and I have a feeling though it may not be as loud its most likely far from over. My best to Susan and you both.

Justin Medlin

Okay, i lost the thread a while back and am trying to get the gist of it without reading all the posts again. i dropped the thread because i am not personally interested in "pretend" play; that is, scripted make-believe situations. Rape scenes or any other scene where one creates a fictional situation are not my cup of tea.

Now i see the thread has veered to edge play - what it is, how it "should" be done, by whom, etc. i really hope i misread some comments here to the effect that nobody should ever do anything like that, period. There are many different types of play, and there is always someone who thinks that your kink (or mine) is disgusting. But that doesn't give anyone the right to say that no one should do it. i have no interest in blood sports; i have no interest in golden showers; i have no interest in age play; i have no interest in rape scenes; i have no interest in "play punishment." But i'm willing to bet that someone reading this is into each of those things, and i have no right to tell them it's wrong. We can find justification for condemning any type of personal expression - BDSM or not, sexual or not. But in the end such condemnation changes nothing; people will do what they will do.

And remember, there's not much edge play out there that's realistically more dangerous than driving down a freeway in a large city during rush hour. Perspective, people, please.

Peace
firebaby

After having slogged through this topic, I think maybe that the opening "definition" of a rape scene started out overly broad. That's probably why it's turned to edge play, since there's no real focus on the aspects of what a rape scene is. I'd like to offer an alternate description of what might consitutute a rape scene for those still interested in the subject.

For starters, blood sports, water sports, extreme bondage, knife play... none of those say "rape" to me. Now, in the real (criminal) version, there are only 2 things that constitute a rape: violence and forced penetration. Kidnapping/torture are separate crimes.

So, if I were to enact a fantasy version of rape, then I'm probably going to modify both the violence and the forced penetration factors to suit consensuality. First, violence becomes simply over-powering my "victim". A slap across the face *might* not be out of the question, but only of the light variety; that would likely be a hard limit for me in this scene. She might be put in restraints to enhance her vulnerability. Then there's the penetration. I can't imagine that someone who is turned on by the fantasy-rape idea is going to enjoy being fucked without any lube (natural or artificial), and arousal is a must. Even if the fantasy is anal rape, if she's not turned on, it's just going to hurt or even do harm.

Does that sound about right? Does that help anyone understand the desire for enacting such a thing? Does it go counter to your desires?

------------------
With this description in mind, I'm curious whether anyone here would describe the following as a "rape scene" from either perspective; I know I've never labeled it as such.

I take my sub, bind her breasts and tie her hands behind her back. Blindfolding her, I bend her over the bed, and whisper in her ear about how I can do _anything_ to her now, and she couldn't do a thing to stop me. She's so wet that her pussy is literally dripping. Not being able to resist any longer, I enter her from behind, her bound breasts cruelly pinched under her torso as I push her face-down on the bed. Grabbing part of the rope harness, I fuck her wildly and with abandon. I really am in complete control of her body and I'm enjoying it immensely.

Was I performing a fantasy rape, without the label, or was that just a form of BDSM fucking?

It seems to me, that there is no way to actually commit a consensual "rape", since the definition of rape is pointedly nonconsensual. However, IMO, it is also an extreme form of power exchange.

My sub and I had talked at great length about this subject, and the crux of the matter for us was by allowing her to resist, would intensify the whole scene a great deal. I already had the right, which I excersized, to take her at any time. She had already submitted to me. So giving her that "running start" so to speak, would have made it that much sweeter for me when I finally took her, and would have been a complete physical domination for her. Mentally, we were already there. Never in our discussions did we discuss any rules of what she wasnt allowed. If she was able to get a kick in to my cojones, then I was careless and deserved it. <G>

We never actually did that during our relationship, in large part because I felt the time needed for care after was more than we would have. <circumstances beyond our control>

About edge play, I think its probably different for each of us. Sure, if its life-threatening, thats a good sign that its edgy... but I think also pushing someone thru a soft limit to a point way beyond what they imagined can also be "edge play"..."for THAT person". <shrug> I never felt it was all that important to label every act we ever did. Just do it, and if you liked it, do it again as often as possible. Especially if it involved pain and humilitaion... <EG>

'Knyfe