i don't know about you, but i'm up for another question.

Some people describe Master Jim's approach to M/s as "high protocol." There seems to be an increasing interest in "protocol" in our community. What does "protocol" mean to you (if anything)? Do you incorporate protocols into your M/s or D/s relationship? Why or why not?

This is something Master Jim and i will be speaking about this weekend at boy Pride in Dallas, so i'm curious to see this board's thinking on the subject.

protocols enable are party's that partake in them to be able to know what they should do in any given situation, thus making things easier all around. I think a lot of people use "protocol" when they should be applying the word "manners", of the type that their mother's should have taught them, regardless of what "lifestyle" they chose to lead in later life.

are protocols part of my lifestyle, both for me and for my girl? yes. which is another thing that is often overlooked, there are protocols (of what I have been taught) for dominants as well. protocols help insure a certain level of headspace for both (or more) people involved. I think that there has always been an interest in protocols, much the same way that there has always been an interest in secret European society's/houses. Both sound interesting and intriguing, as if they were pulled out the ass of a mummy which also contained the holy grail and the winning numbers for Saturdays upcoming bingo night. Protocols in a lot of cases will never be noticed by others people, European secret societies either, except off the net and occasionally a Phoenix will try to rise form the ashes.

Justin Medlin
Master.com's
Jaded Young Dinosaur

Personally, we really have two sets of protocols...one for a public venue and one at home. In public, say at a "play" party, "manners" (and I think Justin hit the nail on the head there) that are required for that "play" space are observed out of respect for those who run or live in that "play" space and out of respect for those who visit that space...I am, of course, thinking of the Sanctuary in this respect.

However, at home, we really do not have "specific" protocols. I really don't feel the need...dragon seems to "naturally" fall into her headspace, as my slave, and doesn't really require reminding...and I look at many protocols, in private spaces, as being a form of "reminding" a sub/slave of her position.

I made the statement about Justin and "manners" because I was raised in Atlanta, having lived there from the 3rd grade until college, and I was taught to observe certain "protocols/manners" as I was growing up. I was expected to open doors for females...I still do, for dragon and for any other female (In fact, when janiece travels alone to the store, or something similar, she has admitted to times of sitting in the car and waiting for me to open her door until she suddenly realizes that I am not with her). I use "Sir and Ma'am" as terms of respect regardless of the age of the recipient...but not as a statement of "submission". I generally use "gentlemanly" manners in my public life...but this is how I was raised, and that "raising" really took root with me.

I once had the experience of a female slave of another Dom open the door for me...I allowed her to do this, out of respect for her desire to please, and the desires of her Master, but, I confess, it did make me a bit uncomfortable...lol.

I have taught dragon a position or two, stolen from Gor, and I use them, generally, as a prelude or "setting" of a scene and to "immediately" induce her headspace prior to commencing a scene. Truthfully, however, they are really not needed in her case.

So, I guess, the answer is no...no formal protocols at home, and only those required by the "public" spaces that we frequent.

Knyghtflyher

Since i asked the question, it seems fair that i should answer it, too.

Protocol plays an important role in my M/s relationship with Master Jim. Why? There are several reasons. Protocol helps to communicate the nature of this relationship to our community and gives the community some structure and certainty as to how to interact with us. (This really is no different than why there are certain "protocols" observed by the ambassadors of sovereign states when they meet.) Protocol also supports the philosophy of direction, discipline and service that Master Jim applies to this relationship. Protocol provides a structure that reinforces the direction that Master Jim has chosen for the relationship, it provides a framework to support the discipline needed to continue living in this kind of relationship, and it offers opportunities for me to serve and for Him to be served when i follow His protocols. Here are some examples of Master Jim's protocols for me (and this is in no way saying these protocols are "right" or the "only ones," only that these are the ones in His relationship with me):

o slave marsha will always refer to Master Jim as Sir or Master or Master Jim. Exceptions to this may occur in business or social settings, but every effort should be made to avoid using Master Jim’s first name whenever possible.

o slave marsha will address others as Sir or Ma’am unless instructed otherwise (and that does include some boys and slaves).

o slave marsha will walk to the right and one step behind Master Jim.

o slave marsha will open doors for Master Jim.

o slave marsha will wait to sit until Master Jim is seated, and will stand if He stands.

o slave marsha will stand in a modified military “at-ease” position.

o When out in public, slave marsha will not leave Master Jim’s side unless given permission.

o slave marsha will not offer her hand to a Top/Master/Dominant, but will shake hands if a hand is offered to her.

o slave marsha is to avoid, whenever possible, being touched (hugged, kissed, etc.) without permission from Master Jim.

o slave marsha is not allowed to use furniture in the home, other than a chair at the computer when working, and the bed when given permission.

There are more, but that gives you a sense of His protocols.

The protocol discussion this weekend at the boys' Pride event was interesting. The group was almost entirely gay/lesbian. In the gay leather community, there is a tradition of military-type protocols since that community has its roots in the soldiers who returned from World War II, so a fair amount of the discussion revolved around those kinds of protocols.

Protocol is a part of my relationship, but it is not something that would be noticeable to others. We are in an environment where privacy can be difficult, so something like kneeling whenever my Mistress enters the room would be out of the question. The protocol that we do incorporate into our relationship is special because it helps us feel in touch with the D/s aspect of our relationship at all times - even when it is difficult to openly express it.

I view protocol as something that reinforces the relationship and as something that, when learned, makes the whole thing easier. If I have a 'default' rule in place, I don't have to worry over resolving new situations.

rabid,

This is in no way meant to be nitpicky or disparaging: but I've been wondering a lot about protocol, contracts, and general "routines" since I saw a presentation on these kinds of things recently. There's one thing I don't get:

Why would you want the whole thing to be "easier"? To me it seems like something that would drain the vibrancy of a relationship to always handle situations in the same way over and over. I think I am just missing something -- but very rigid, rule-oriented systems seem almost to me like ways of living a relationship by rote -- and I was already tired of rote memorization by the third grade. *g*

I think for me, as someone who's not a sub, it's tough for me to really understand these things. I can understand a person's wanting, even needing, consistency in major aspects of the relationship.

But honestly, "what I want", unless it's considered very broadly, changes all the time. Yes, I have particular preferences (buy me whole milk and I won't be very happy, I love Thai food, etc) -- but structuring a relationship in terms of the parts of me that are in stasis, unchanging, not growing, seems... less than alive to me, somehow.

So I've always wondered, in the event that I do find a relationship and that D/s does blossom therein -- how can I fulfill the other person's need for consistency while keeping myself from feeling like the frozen dom in carbonite?

(sorry to marsha and Jim for getting a bit off topic here.)

Trinity,

I didn't mean 'easier' in the sense of not trying, not learning new things, not experimenting. Let me try and elaborate.

I'm primarily a game designer by trade - been playing with 'rules' as long as I can remember,

Imagine playing Monopoly and pretend that every single turn, you need to re-read the rules in order to find out what you can and can't do.

Instead, the way you really play is to have a set of basic rules that everyone knows, and the enjoyment comes from the interaction and the banter. Only occassionally do you have to refer to the rulebook to check on the resolution of an unusual situation.

This is what I meant by 'easier' and 'default'. The basic operational rules are laid down and well understood; having to review them constantly actually detracts from the fun.

Does that make things any clearer?

rabid,

Yes, that makes a bit more sense. But I suppose my question then is -- how do relationships resemble playing Monopoly? How is the complex interaction between humans like taking turns in a game?

Yeah, there are a few things in our lives that become routine. But... I don't know. D/sers, I sometimes find, speak of these routines as if they were the holy grail of D/s... whereas to me, they seem more like the little boring aspects of the relationship that should -- and do -- fade into the background. For example, my daily routine includes brushing my teeth -- and I tend to do it in a similar way and at similar times each day and night. But it's on the periphery, rather than at the center, of my experience.

Am I misunderstanding what gets codified and what level of importance its being codified might have?

I suppose the thing for me is that at least in my little idealized sense of what it would mena to have a sub, I would see that kind of relationship as one that was profoundly intimate.

Whereas it seems to me that military-style protocol is a way of introducing distance. "do THIS when you enter my presence, whether you feel like getting close to me or not." etc.

How do you reconcile the deep intimacy of baring your very soul to another with remaining rigidly locked into certain patterns?

Trinity -- i don't think your questions and comments are off topic at all!

i'm pretty much in agreement with rabid. Let me assure you, Master Jim changes some of the "rules" with great abandon, at His pleasure and sometimes to my great frustration! *laughing* But the bigger rules, the basic rules of the "game," so to speak, are set, giving me security and consistency, and the knowledge that if i follow them, i will be serving Him in a way pleasing and satisfying to Him.

Trinity,

Monopoly was only an example of a game familiar to most; it resembles my life in great detail as I always seem to pass go without collecting 200 bucks - but thats me.

First, let me explain that K and I refer to what we do as 'play' and as 'making up the rules for ourselves' and as 'creating a reality for just the two of us'.

We borrow and modify those lifestyle elements that work for us, but we are not rigidly bound to anything - unless we want to be.

Protocol is, I think, just another word for saying 'rules', and where rules are useful and beneficial, we use them, and when they are restrictive and no fun, we don't.

Here's another example: sometimes I want K where I can keep an eye on her, but, for whatever reason, don't want to interact directly with her. I got a very nice round cushion and it is placed somewhere convenient for me to keep an eye on.

When K is not doing anything specific, she is to go and stay on her cushion.

She's free to sit on that cushion in a pleasing posture, but most of the time the specific posture is up to her discretion.

And I'm free to place it in different locations - or even hide it - if I want to tease her a bit.

If, during discussion, we find that using the cushion is no longer fun, we'll discard it. Meanwhile, she doesn't have to hunt for some place to go, doesn't have to ask questions and getsa some idea of what we'll be doing or not doing when she sees it on the floor.

We're just talking about a framework here. Like burshing your teeth, you've made it a routine so that it is easy to remember - but nothing stops you from changing that routine, getting a different brush - or even using it in manners not intended by the manufacturer.

Trinity,

You make some good points, but i too have to agree with rabid and marsha. As i see it, we're simply approaching the lifestyles of our choice from different directions and different needs. (And frankly, judging by the people i've met, more tend to follow your approach than mine.) Here's the difference, as i see it. You describe the intensity of the emotional (and physical) bond between a dominant and a submissive, and it's true, that is *very* intense. i don't think anyone can live at that level of intensity all the time, in every situation; it seems to me we'd blow a fuse or something eventually. So some people do as you do; that is, they have a regular, standard relationship interspersed regularly with high levels of intensity. The rest of the time the partners are just two people, without a need or desire to have the D/s relationship at any lesser level of intensity. Basically, it's all-or-nothing, overdrive-or-neutral, to some extent.

And then there are people like me for whom being a slave is an integral part of my self-identity. i'm not just a slave when things are intense, i'm a slave all the time, and i am most comfortable when i have at least some awareness of that fact. So in between bouts of high intensity, Master and i are operating at a lower level. We live in all-or-a-minimum, overdrive-or-low.

You bring up brushing your teeth, and the habitual nature of that action. That's exactly the focus of the daily "reminders." Think how off-putting it would be to have to use a different kind of brush, or a different brushing motion, at different times of day, with a different toothpaste. You don't do it out of habit any more, you're having to think at least a little bit about what you're doing. And if you were making those changes at the behest of a dominant (or in your case, your submissive were making those changes at your behest), there's a small reminder that the relationship always exists; it's never in neutral. It may not be intense, but it makes me smile to be reminded of that, and it makes Master smile to see it.

Does that help *any*?

Peace
firebaby

Now that I've had a chance to think more on this issue, I believe we ought to back off for a second and realize that some of the (confusion? misunderstanding?) is due perhaps to individual defintions of the words 'protocol' and 'rules'.

At the most abstract level, all we're talking about here is - WIITWD - the circular defintion of the 'lifestyle' that pretty much encompasses anything and everything that two or more consenting adults agree to do with and to each other.

That includes everything from rigidly controlled 'military' protocol (and I've no doubt that there are some subs and slaves who's daily routine includes saluting and standing at attention) to a silk scarf and a bed post, followed by the question - "who's turn is it tonite?"

With that said, everyone has 'rules' and protocols they use in their lives that provide the grease for relationship wheels - be it an agreement on who's chores are what, manners of greeting, ways of discussing issues - all the way to such things as how we address people we are asking favors of to the ways in which children are admonished when caught in bad behavior.

My relationship with K has mostly been via the internet and we have chosen to 'make things easier' by separating situations into those which are 'formal' and those which are not.

Formal encounters require such things as the proper forms of address, permission required for certain activities and the knowledge that one of us is 'in control' and the other is not. It also includes (and here's a default rule here) the proper manner in which to request that formality be suspended.

Formality is typically suspended for two reasons: an issue has arisen (be it lifestyle or 'real world') that can be handled more quickly and clearly without formality or when one or the both of us, for whatever reason, are not in the proper frame of mind.

Our 'default' rule is that we make the rules and that if things get confusing or out of whack, we'll suspend the play so that we can deal with it.

In other words, our rules and protocols are only in place so long as they are useful and we are both enjoying the play.

I think some of the very formal protocol can be almost described as a kink. Because you either injoy it or you don't. It's not easy to explain why I enjoy it. However, I do want to point out, that formal protocol does not do away with sponanaeity(sp?). I haven't met anyone with protocols so rigid as to make everyday variety impossible. The degree of rigidity varies from person to person.

(General posting)

What it's always meant to me is that it's a tool to achieve consistency, build confidence, and effective as a method for dealing with serious issues in a formal manner when need be.

As with all tools, if it's not the right one for a particular job, it's best left in the box. ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn