I thought I'd throw this topic out at the brilliant folks here and see what you think...

We all know there's a popular theory out there in BDSM-Land that in order to be a good dom, a person should start out on the bottom. The reasoning: someone who learns to top by bottoming will have a more sensitive and compassionate attitude towards subs (having walked a mile in their stilettoes), and will be a safer, saner top.

My question: if this is true, then shouldn't the reverse also be true? Aren't there realities of dominance that would make a sub a *better* sub if only he or she walked a mile in *our* heavy leather boots? After all, if a dom is really improved by living on the subbie side, it stands to reason that submissives would be improved by living on the dominant side too.

Or would they?

What do you think?

Glory

(sitting back to learn from your ideas)

To: GloriaBrame

Yet another excellent item to wrestle with. ;-)

I've seen multiple cases (either way) of this theory working well. I've also seen it backfire more often than not.

Yes, it likely gives the submissive a little deeper understanding and perhaps some measure of respect for what the dominant goes through, but (unless they have genuine switch tendencies) there's always one key element absent: real desire. When someone who genuinely has a beautifully submissive nature is put in the position of having to dominate just to learn what it feels like, they don't usually feel what the dominant feels naturally (because it's not based on their own real need). Instead of feeling control, more often they feel awkward (and possibly even afraid). Perhaps the reason why such a method has ANY measure of effectiveness is because the submissive walks away from it thinking, "That's something I NEVER want to have to do again! I'm happiER just being myself."

Personally, I think that while such ideas have some minor merits, it's always better to focus on celebrating and developing true nature and not creating a possible circumstance where a person might be made to feel doubt because they weren't able to do something that was never really in their nature in the first place.

FWIW. :-)
Be safe,
Thorn

Personally, i think that if one were true the obverse would also apply. But i don't accept the underlying premise that one has to bottom first in order to be a better top. It may well be true of people who enjoy the play but not the dominant/submissive power structure and the emotional/psychological aspects of power exchange (what i call tops and bottoms). But some of us are submissive or dominant by nature, and wouldn't have the play without the foundation of a power exchange relationship; for those people, i can't see that pretending to be something you're not will be beneficial. But then again, i strongly feel that the most important thing we can do with our life is to live it as a true expression of who we are.

Peace
firebaby

Always playing the devil's advocate, gloria? I think this topic is a batch of hogwash. If a person's natural tendencies lean toward the Dominant, then so be it. One can learn just as much by listening to his/her sub as by switching. By being an empathetic Dom, S/He can be relegated to the status of "good" Dom just as well as being a switch (without the added nuance).
Fare thee well
Fearghal

If a Dominant, bottom's - then they 'know' what a submissive feels when pain is inflicted.

And the same thing if a submissive, tops. Then they 'know' first hand what it's like to be in the Dominant/top role. (to INFLICT the pain)

Same thing with control.

I think it can be good for many but not always good for everyone.

Steel

Personally, I would enjoy seeing what would happen if a sub did in fact have to live for a dominant for a week. I wonder how a sub would then see what it means to be dom and what it's like to deal with the responsibilities and difficulties of training and caring for subs.

I love this question, can only speak from experience and I tend to agree with thorn. The experience may cause the sub to walk away with the true conviction that "This is NOT for me!"

Six years ago, I had some good "mentors" that introduced me to different kinds of play. The were tops/Doms, safe and understood proper technique.

Well, I was playing with a switch and he wanted to reverse roles. He told me that I was great at it - so I decided to top for awhile. It lasted a total of about 2 months.
This may sound crazy, but I literally became sick - I started heaving...(poor guys - can't do much for their esteem issues).

Anyway, the point is - I just could not top and enjoy it.
While I knew the technique - and the "talk," - it just was not innate.

On the other hand, no one had to tell me that I needed to "learn" how to subspace, or do those things that a sub *naturally* does when with a partner.
And while dominants may need to learn safety issues, techniques - I believe the expression will come naturally.

Also, I would never want a Dom to say to me, "Dear, why don't you top me for awhile so that I can appreciate better what it's like being a bottom."
Now this is only *my personal preference* thing - but I would lose some sort of respect for that person.

But as I said - this is just me.
There are a lot of variances out there - and that's what makes us each unique.

~sublimity

<<Also, I would never want a Dom to say to me, "Dear, why don't you top me for awhile so that I can appreciate better what it's like being a bottom." >>

LOL!

So what do you (and others here) make of the many doms now out there (at least on-line) who do indeed demand that their subs top them "as part of their training"?

Will has this theory that these "doms" are weenies who won't admit they are really sub because they need to look important in the Scene (or in their own minds).

Hmm. I sometimes have my sweetie tie me up, or do other things, while I tell him exactly how I want him to do it. I don't consider it part of his "training," I just consider it fun (for both of us). :)

<<So what do you (and others here) make of the many doms now out there (at least on-line) who do indeed demand that their subs top them "as part of their training"?>>

Why would you possibly want to train someone to be something they aren't? If you want a sub, why do you want them to act Dom? i'm not sure i agree with Will that these people are really sub, but i do think they approach the lifestyle from the play point of view, rather than the relationship point of view. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the sensations (giving and receiving); there is something wrong when you hook up with someone for whom this isn't enough. That, imo, is a terrible mismatch. If you just enjoy the play, then hey, go for it with someone else who enjoys the play as much as you. That's why a good relationship (vanilla or alternate) should really be based on a foundation of *mutual* desires and needs, etc. i, for example, wouldn't be at all happy in such a relationship, because it's not who i am. And i agree with Thorn; you may learn mechanics by switching roles, but you certainly can't learn how it feels to someone who's truly suited to it.

Peace
firebaby

<<Will has this theory that these "doms" are weenies who won't admit they are really sub because they need to look important in the Scene (or in their own minds).>>

I think Will is correct!

I mean think about it - I can't imagine John Wayne saying to Maureen O'Hare,
"Spank me, Ma'am. It will help me understand you better!"
It certainly would diminish my image of Petruchio!

You need to listen to Will on this one, Glory.

<<Personally, I would enjoy seeing what would happen if a sub did in fact have to live for a dominant for a week. I wonder how a sub would then see what it means to be dom and what it's like to deal with the responsibilities and difficulties of training and caring for subs.>>

Not that I have had an experience of being dom - at least not in a kinky sense. But my work has put me in a position a time or two that I think has a lot of similarities.

Working with people who have multiple and profound disabilities in their own homes has amazing challenges. Ultimately you are the person responsible for the success or failure of their life.

It is damn hard work. You use all the skill and knowledge that you have - and then you make the best guess you can. Somethings work, somethings don't. Somethings work but the struggle to get them to a place where there work feels overwhelming at times. You bear the brunt of failures - they take the credit for sucesses. Sometimes your own likes / dislikes prevent you from making a clear judgment about what would be most beneficial for the other person. Its a constant struggle to keep the "what would I do" out of it - and to focus on "given what I know about this person how are they most likely to respond".

Its hard to find that balance between being their friend, and having them believe in your authority. To be flexible enough to respond to another beings needs, but firm enough that they know that you mean what you say.

Its harsh being responsible for the care and feeding of another being. Those moments when you simply don't have the compassion / patience that is required weigh heavily on you. You have to suck up being blamed for things they do / don't want to do - until they can see the benefit of it themselves. Its often a thankless task - especially if you are working with people who have been marginalised (or abused) by those that have come before you.

So my real question is "how come anyone would wanna?" :)

Seriously it doesn't surprise me that a lot of "doms" just want to do the fun stuff (because it's, well, fun!) but not the "care and feeding" stuff. Because its not fun. Satisfying yes, hugely rewarding, and meaningful too - but usually time consuming and often not a whole lot of fun.

As far as the benefits to walking a week in the other shoes. I'm not sure. I have seen Doctors / nurses / careworkers change their mode of operation after being forced to take on the patient role for a while. But more often they just make crap patients! :)

I am not sure that you can really teach the empathy and compassion that is required to be a good dom. If you have it, you don't need to bottom to get it. If you don't I don't think any amount of bottoming is going to give it to you.

I really don't think that a week is long enough for a sub to see the real pitfalls of domming. I think most people could hang it together for a short period of time - and for a short period of time I think most people would even enjoy it. Power is fun, afterall. But the real cost / benefits of it take time to come out. Things that you do this week may well have ramifications next month, next year, rather than this week.

IMX, playing at something for a short period of time dosent give you a well rounded insight into what it really like in the longer term.

I have been asked by more than one young person "how can I tell if I will be a good nurse?" And I always answer - try it for a couple of years, and then you might have some idea.

Jules

I am going back to lurking and staying out of town. Yall discuss the kewlest stuff while I'm gone!

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
    With
Poodle Flair

Jules
You made some excellent points!

Just as there are "caretakers,"/"caregivers" out there (who we are so thankful for, btw) -
*not everyone* is meant for that type of work.
And the *authentic* ones (although they have bad days like we all do from time to time) LIKE what they do - they sort of *thrive* on it.
For a person to deal with others in that "caregiving manner" and it NOT be something they like makes for a serious potential for harm/abuse towards the clientele.
~~~~~
Very similar to topping...
When I started "heaving" when I was doing that interim of topping, I don't think I was helping *anyone*.

Also, I've always considered topping a very time-consuming and hard "job"...one that I just couldn't understand how anyone would like it! And this was before I tried it.

But - if a person can't top and *enjoy* it, then perhaps they are not a true dom.

~subliity

I dunno, as a once sub, now ocassional bottom but mostly Dom/Top (ok I'm a Domme-leaning switch) I can see the benefit of experiencing things from both sides.

I like playing in little groups and when I was first learning (like I've stopped?) I spent some time co-topping with my most favorite bottom and a mutual good friend. I learned skills, technique and felt like I had a good support while exploring intense power exchange.

A good dynamic might be for two people in a D/s relationship to co-top a third person. This way the submissive is serving their Dominant in assisting in topping and exposed to a different perspective.

I think there is a great benefit in seeing things from both sides. A sub/bottom should be able to appreciate and understand the energy and skill a good Dom/top puts into play.

As someone who enjoyed being a free-agent bottom for many years, I'd have been better off knowing more of what skills were needed by a good Top. I might have been more discerning and safe-worded out of situations where the Top was clearly over their head.

As a bottom, one should at least read SM "how to" books, the Topping Book, stuff like that. Become familiar with what goes on.

Just cause someone calls themselves a Dominant and has a bag full of expensive toys, does NOT mean they know how to use 'em or has educated/healthy thinking behind the power exchange.

Ann

Even though I am a sub... completely... I have actually done this on a very small scale; Dom for a night! While inbetween my ex Dom and my new Dom, I had a couple of experiences with a man who turned out to be submissive and wanted me to Dom him. I did, a couple of times, and enjoyed it, but that was enough.

And that was only in sexual play. If I had to Dom him 24/7, I don't know if I could do it, as I think my natural submissive side would get in the way. But after being a single parent for 15 years and having total responsibility for our lives, I think I have some of that experience already.

Did I gain from my experience with this male sub? Sure... hopefully we gain from every experience. Does it make me a better sub? Not in my analysis... but it could have had an affect I am unaware of.

Well, I think I rode the fence a bit... but that's my nickels worth.

Wildflower

One thing i've noticed is missing in this thread so far. Not everyone needs to experience something to have some appreciation for what it entails. For example, as a child my family always went camping on vacation (there were 7 of us, and my parents couldn't afford any other kind of vacation). i thoroughly enjoyed it - staying in a tent, sleeping in sleeping bags, eating from a cookstove or a campfire, and enjoying the gentle light from a Coleman lantern. But i also was *very* aware of the work my parents had to put into it, and it didn't look like fun at all. To this day, as an adult i have NEVER gone camping, and unless i'm ordered to, i have no intention of doing it again. Likewise, i can see quite clearly the amount of work and effort and thought and dedication, not to mention skill, that goes into being a good Dominant. And since i have no emotional desire to fill that role, and i realize it doesn't look like anything i'd enjoy, then what's the point? The only reason for me topping would be to please Master, and i can't imagine why Master would want to see his slave in the position of topping. But that's not our thing, which doesn't mean it's not someone else's.

Peace
firebaby

Wow, what a response on this topic. I dont think that I could live as a Dom/me for a week, I would go nuts - too much responsibility. I could however for a scene at least give it a try - I mean to show him what I experience would be mind boggling - but then again would I be more into punishing him for pushing me so hard over the last 5 years? I dont think that the mechanics are hard to learn, its more not able to reverse mode of the emotional stuff that both Dom's and Subs go through in relationships. We just aren't BUILT that way - I also don't think that lack of empathy and compassion have anything to do with it, I am very empathetic and compassionate as a sub - its just I dont want to control him - otherwise I would be a switch. I think you would have to have switch in you to be able to do this with true heart and not fake it. I mean, as a Domme Gloria, would you be faking it? or would you really be putting your guts into it to get "there" where subs go when sceneing?

Gloria, how long since you have been in the submissive role if ever? how long for Will? could you now that you have clearly defined yourselves as Dom/mes? How about you Thorn? it doesn't seem you three are remotely switch so heres those damn labels again that I clearly dislike, but just curious who has done this that isn't switch? and really went "there" where the other partner normal goes emotionally?

I personally would never allow a sub to top me. If I wanted to experience domination I would get another Domme to do it. Subs are confused enough already without adding that to the mix.

Termin8trx

<<Subs are confused enough already>>

Termin8trx, care to elaborate?

I have frequently been told that people who do what I do are actually submissive. I have been approached by male Masters who have offered to top me so that I will be a better Domina and told me that I must really hate being in control all the time. To which I reply, "Not in this lifetime." I don't enjoy submissive headspace any where near as much as I enjoy being in control. I value submission partly because it is not something I can do.

I understand the pleasure of doing a job well, of pleasing someone to elicit a gleam in their eye, of being more concerned for their pleasure than my own. But my pleasure is not as rich for me on bended knees done in adoration or devotion. For the most part my motivation is as caretaker and nurturer, again with the control to make decisions. Jules has deftly articulated the pitfalls and frustrations of having that role.

I never try a new skill or learn a new technique without a mentor, so I have frequently co-topped with others. There isn't a toy in my dungeon that I haven't experienced when physically possible but I know I am not a masochist. While I might have an understanding of the sensation I cause when I apply nipple clamps or use a single-tail on someone, I will never understand the pleasure of the space they can achieve because it is particular to them. I can fully revel in the giving of erotic and sadistic pain.

I, like Anne, have had subs top someone. It is invaluable in learning the nuances, motivations, and commands of a sub when they are in control, things they might not be able to articulate. But what they say is that they were not really dominating but that they were simply doing what they want done to them. As Thorn pointed out, they often lack the desire for control.

I agree with Thorn that to celebrate and develop what is already within ourselves is a much richer experience than trying to be what we are not.

Lady Sierra

I own a slave and I am in service to Master Doug Harris. Am I a better TOP? Probably not, as the point of our relationship has not been about the play. Am I a better DOMINANT? Damn skippy! In having to force myself into "boy space" it helps me to appreciate the service mind set of a submissive. It has helped me to be able to somewhat look at things from the submissive point of view. But the reason that I am sure that it has helped me is that my girl can and does notice a marked improvement from before to now. My reasoning behind every deciding to take this route was always about working on myself, learning and building myself into the best dominant that I can be. I don't think that this is the best route for everyone, but it has worked for me.

So should submissives try walking in our shoes to become better submissives? Personally, I think not, so that most likely makes me wrong. I think that the only thing that they might come away with that would benefit them would be a greater respect for the load that we willingly carry. Keep in mind that I can only speak from my perspective, that of a dominant who sought and found a service oriented slave. The weight of the load that we bear I think, is held on the inside. You will note that I have not spoken to whether tops and bottoms switching will improve their over all skills. Tops and bottoms are not the same to me as dominants and submissives. Certainly a bottom can learn to use any tool or implement with a high degree of skill. Certainly I think that any top that takes the time to learn what the things they use feel like on themselves will increase their awareness of how to use it effectively and with more appreciation of what it can do. Note, slapping oneself on the leg with a flogger does not qualify in my opinion. Do I think that making oneself take the opposite role is the only way to become a qualified dominant, submissive, top or bottom? No. I can say that I have had a lot of respect for those dominants and tops who have taken that path, as they seem to be more well rounded for the most part. The main thing to me is that each person continues to seek to learn and grow in whatever capacity they may occupy. How they go about doing that is up to each person individually.

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
    With
Poodle Flair

To: nastykate

Regarding your question as to whether or not I've ever been in a submissive role (and I presume you mean in a BDSM context): No, I haven't.

To anticipate and answer your next question: No, it's not out of fear or lack of desire to try to understand how a submissive feels. It's due to knowing what I am, knowing what I enjoy, and knowing what I need.

This may not sound genuine, but I assure you it's the complete truth (as my heart and mind view it): It takes an incredibly special kind of person to give up control to another. I'm not nearly that special -- nor could I ever try to fake being so. ;-)

Be safe,
T.

THIS will be interesting.

Kate,

I tried subbing in my first forays into SM (in the 80s) but it just never felt right to me--the dom role always came much more naturally. Will was pretty much in the same boat, someone who'd had some sub fantasies but, in reality, couldn't quite wrap his mind around submission. When we first got together, he was my sub; when we decided to marry, we decided to switch, as we both knew we couldn't go without outlets for our dom sides. Well...we tried. And we tried. And it turned out to be very trying! :-) The best solution for us was simply to accept neither of us really would ever make it as a sub, and to build our marriage around a 2-dom household. This has worked out to be the best of all possible worlds for us, though polyamory obviously is not for everyone and does have its own challenges. But, after 13 yrs, it's become our (extremely comfortable, pleasant) way of life.

Now...thinking back...I probably wouldn't have tried subbing if not for pressure from my mentors-at-the-time. One of them was switch herself; another was a maledom who believed I'd learn to top by subbing to him. I did learn from him--especially when we co-topped others--but taking the sub role usually left me feeling dissatisfied and even angry ("you want me to do what?! I think NOT!") I loved certain types of roleplay and fetishes, but had zero interest in intense sensation (to myself, that is)...as for service? bwaaa-haaa-haaaaa. It's just not in my nature to serve. (Ironically, those are all qualities--painsluttiness, service whore--that I adore in subs!)
 
Actually, in my very first (official) SM relationship (v. the bondage and spanking play I did in my 20s, when I had NO IDEA what it was called *g*), I started out sub...and ended up dom in about 2-3 months because (the story of my life) I turned out to be about 6000 times more dom than my so-called Master :-) We're still great friends but never looked back.

If I had to do it all over again, I think I would've skipped the sub experience. It only ended up confusing me for a time. Whereas, my domme experiences--despite the ups and downs of the learning curve--were ALWAYS exhilarating.

So...to those who think you *must* start in one place to get to another...I'd say, "nah, follow your own heart." After 16 yrs in the lifestyle, when I now see mentors who urge people to take the sub role to "learn," it makes my skin crawl. I remember how confusing it was for me to fail at something folks kept insisting should come naturally (it sure as hell didn't). I can't help wondering if others too feel like square pegs that someone's trying to pound into a round hole. (And, by the way, I believe the reverse must be true too: that there are some folks out there trying to be dom who would really be happiest as subs...but who, for whatever reason, feel pressured to be dom.)

xx,

Glory

termin8trx, i'd like to add my voice to Babydoll's in requesting elaboration on the "subs are confused enough already" comment. Please.

Peace
firebaby

In regards to Thorn and Gloria's response: theres my point Will and Gloria, 'THOUGHT OR BELIEVED" they were "switch" when they were in the submissive role, and Thorn has not been in a submissive role and isn't a switch nor every believed he was.

But then our dear sweet Justin brings up a good point. Justin says Bottom/Top vs Dom/Sub going in the other role makes them better to a degree - I guess I just dont get that whole Top/Bottom thing - probably because i am a bottom sub - boring and predictable :-)

So perhaps in order to do this successfully without feeling like a failure you would have to be a switch, either Top&Bottom or Dom/Sub=switch?

I know I dont want to go there even in fun vs pleasure because I would feel like a failure and it would fuck with me emotionally when in submissive role.

This is quite a interesting topic Gloria, I am enjoying this emmensely.

ps. Thorn, your note "it takes an incredibly special kind of person to give up control to another. I'm not nearly that special -- nor could I ever try to fake being so" ------------- blushing -----but dahlin, if this was the case, you just dont know how very special you really are

Love Kate

Also echoing Nadi's Babydoll confusion on that statement

Subs are confused????????????

like Doms aren't?

When babydoll and I first started exploring BDSM, I took a submissive role. I did this because of the immense joy I receive from pleasing others, especially other lovers. However, it became clear within DAYS that babydoll wasn't cut out for domming, nor was I a particularly good sub. I wouldn't leave babydoll alone: always asking her what she wanted me to do for her, rather than waiting to be asked in any way; acting up just so that she would "be" dominant, even though she clearly didn't want to be. Bear in mind, please, that up to this point I've been making a very careful destination between D/S and S/M
  All that said, I still have masochistische fantasies, but as a couple we don't act on them -- we probably won't. As soon as we switched roles we were both in heaven. We'd found what we wanted and began to settle into our respective roles (a process I've found out never really stops, which is part of the fun).
  So, I still have the occasional fantasies. But I've found that the pleasure I find in pleasing others can be perfectly fit into my role as dominant. In fact, it is this very desire that is the wellspring of the reservoir of care and patience needed for being a dom. Once I accepted that I was better as a dom, and that babydoll was better as a sub, I realized that we derive pleasure from these roles and the best way to please is to respect our roles and follow our respective bliss.
  Now that I've rambled for a while I should add a caveat: I'm new. I've never topped (or bottomed) anyone else before, though I hope that this is in my future. So I'm really in no position to speak on this subject. But it is my belief that should a bottom *want* to top, her top should not stop her.
  Just as we advocate that people not force themselves into vanilla roles if they just don't fit, so we should not force scene people into scene roles in which they do not feel comfortable. If anything, we should maintain consistency in the way we treat people - inside and outside the scene.
--AN

I have never really felt any desire to take a dominant role. I have that in my work life...and I feel that in my personal life, I want to let go of that.

 Having said that, I do have an extreme desire to get to know the sexually dominant mind. I am constantly asking questions about how Dominants "feel" when they are scening, what kind of high is it? They inevitably ask me, "why, do you want to be dominant!" NO!! I just want to know what my dominant is feeling, if it is different from what I feel, which I suppose it is.

 Most have told me it is a feeling of intense focus and clarity. To me, going into sub space is like a swirl of thoughts and emotions, nothing close to clarity, but more like an emotional and spiritual flood. I suppose I am a child of psychology, and I just like to know what makes people tick. Especially those people I find the most interesting, those Dommes!!

 diana

Oops, I forgot something. I do not generally think it takes someone to submit to be a better Dominant. I feel that each should take their own path. However, personally, I don't want to be with a dominant who does not test and practice with implements, and at least tap themselves with them to know what the implements are capable of. To me, every cop should be proficient with his/her weapon before going on the street with it. As I feel a dominant should be with his or her implements.

  diana =]

<< To me, every cop should be proficient with his/her weapon before going on the street with it >>

That is exactly what I told my Captain a long time ago when I accidently shackled myself and he had to come back to the Police Dept with the key.

This is an interesting thread, but it confuses two very distinct ideas. Playing around on the other side of the fence may make someone a more perceptive top or bottom, but as Gloria, Wildflower and others have pointed out, this has zero result on anyone who is not just playing, but who is truly dominant or submissive.

The best dominants and submissives are people who truly ARE dom or sub ... not people who aren't sure.

Craig

<<I just want to know what my dominant is feeling, if it is different from what I feel, which I suppose it is.>>

i understand that desire very well, and i too asked. But that just left both the Dominant and me very frustrated, because emotions are hard to accurately and vividly describe and even harder to understand if you've never felt them. So the first time i got an opportunity to watch someone else play, all i wanted to focus on was the faces of the participants. And while i don't imagine i'll ever feel what they do, i think i've come as close as i can to understanding it by just watching.

Which also, btw, helped answer the question i'd posed to myself about how "typical" i was in my responses. ;)

Although i'll have to say that the most satisfying scenes for me to watch are those between an established couple ... they seem to enjoy a deeper intensity of energy exchange and interplay than casual play partners. (A caveat here: i've only seen a limited number of other people play, so i'm hardly an expert. These are my observations only.)

Peace
firebaby

You would be dead on balls accurate in my opinion firebaby. Watching people play who are established couples and have been doing things together over a long period of time is usually amazing.

Justin Medlin
YDWPF!

To: memneth and firemastersbaby

Interesting points, folks. Let me throw in the counterpoint regarding 'amazement'.

I know of at least two examples from personal experience (and suspect quite a few others) where the person viewing 'established' play partners was SO amazed that they came away from it with a feeling that they'd never be able to replicate what they saw. In the two examples that I know the results of, one was someone who had previously identified as 'extremely dominant' and came away feeling that what they saw entailed much more responsibility and expertise than they believed themselves capable of -- and eventually they settled into a 'light-play, bedroom only' dominant role. The other walked away from BDSM altogether. They understand it. They still believe there are internal needs not being met, but they were so intimidated by what they thought would be expected of them that they could not get past the weight of it all.

Now, one side will say that if those are the directions these people went, then those directions were genuinely the ones 'right' for them. Ok...a valid theory that will probably never be proven one way or the other. But there's a side which might just as easily wonder whether or not it may have turned out differently if the people in question had methodically built up to what they witnessed. ;-)

(By the way, the same thing almost happened to me...probably why your points struck a chord.)

Be safe,
Thorn

i can easily understand how fairly-to-seriously intense play can scare and *over*awe people. So i definitely wouldn't recommend that type of scene to anyone who's still on the early steps of the path. And lots of established couples aren't into heavy, intense sensation; these are the people i'd watch if i were new. That way, you can get the best of both worlds. i've never been intimidated by any play i've seen (but then again, i haven't seen anywhere near everything yet), but i've been told that some of the play Master and i have done has intimidated people. That's never been our intent, and if those people had just talked to us i know we would have tried very hard to ease their minds.

i think those just starting to explore BDSM tend to be a bit scared of heavy sensation play, and rightfully so. It's something you work up to as you learn and grow, not something that (in my opinion) anyone would do right out of the gate. Now *that's* a scary thought.

Peace
firebaby

Devils Advocate Thorn? lol. Is that where the "Thorn" nick comes from ;) While I am willing to state that you are right in your observations, it strikes a couple of different cords in me.

1) does that mean that we should lower the bar and keep
   all intense play in the bedroom? I know the answer
   to that, but we have continually lowered the bar to
   the lowest common denominator for awhile now

2) were they so blown away that they were afraid to ask
   questions about what they had seen? every person
   that I know that plays in public is more than happy
   to tell people about their experiences and to try
   and help others........but they have to be approached

Justin Medlin
The Guy Who Likes
Blood Yet Does
Waffle House Play
For Demos

To: memneth

Yeah, ya DO know the answer to that one. ;-)

All I'm saying is that TOPically (damn he's punny), having a method to the proverbial madness goes a long way -- and actually RAISES the bar in a lot of cases. Intimidation is a strong deterrent -- particularly to communication.

If you take the time to figure out what you'd like the destination to be, it will make the trip that much easier. (Yet another valid reason why the concept of submissives learning 'from the top' doesn't really hold water.)

Be safe,
Thorn

Oh my my my. Now if your going to set the ball at the net for me, then I have no choice but to spike it lol. It sounds to me as if your advocating having a plan. I am all about that. If you wander from the chat rooms into a public play space with no experience or education of what it is that you might see, yes, you very well may be intimidated by what you find there. I have yet to see any scene take place in real time with use of a keyboard, but since I do have two demonstrations coming up on the Lighter Side of Play, I may incorporate a broken one that I have. Life is about choices (my opinion). If you choose to attend something with little or no education or experience, then it very well can be intimidating. If you choose to go find the education you need that is available in dang near every town now, through groups, discussions (real ones, face to fave, no web cam involved) and demonsrtations that are DESIGNED so that people can feel safe, ask questions, then you stand a better chance of feeling more comfortable when you walk into that play space. Education BEYOND the damn Net is out there in abundance. People must choose whether its for them. Play spaces are out there as well, but if I knew that I had no idea of what I was doing, of what I might see before I went, I would have made the choice to set myself up to be intimidated, if I was built that way. Being a happily admitted dumb ass as I am, makes it easier on me I suppose. Now, I had already been active for a long while before I CHOSE to go into formal service to Sir. I had also been mentored online and in some real life things by SUBMISSIVES, who helped ease the way well before then. The fact remains that no matter what you do or who you do it with, you are gonna learn. Its about choices. One choice leads to others. IM*N*SHO its about being educated so that I can make the best choices for me, but then there are many choices as to HOW to go about that. I like the idea of having a plan. But that's just me.
 "having a method to the proverbial madness goes a long way -- and actually RAISES the bar in a lot of cases. Intimidation is a strong deterrent -- particularly to communication."
Thank you for wording my point for me beautifully.....it still comes down to choice. Intimidation as you describe it sounds as if it came from wandering in blindly, withOUT a method to the madness. If thats the case for the two examples that you gave then at least they have narrowed their choices by one and will now set out to have a plan.

Justin Medlin
YDWPF!

Learning from the TOP

Glory .......

What a can of worms <smiling> or perhaps a toy bag filled with goodies.

This thread is an interesting one for me and also one that requires i finally define for myself what i see as the differences between Top/bottom and Dominant/submissive before i can even begin to formulate an answer.

When thinking about this lifestyle ..... it is necessary for ME to break things down so that i can distinguish between definitions. i want to express how i see the difference so that my thoughts can be better communicated.

First is Top and bottom. imho .... these labels refer more to the kinky play within the BDSM world. Though there must be many of the same considerations, safety .. a high level of awareness both for yourself as well as your partner, consent between “players” ... respect for limits .... and integrity in honoring safewords, specific needs, and physical as well as emotional well being .... the thrust of the activity is not dominating or submitting, but rather the pleasure that is gain by both partners from the physical ... sexual ... and MS aspect. A top may be a Dominant ... a submissive ... or a switch .... who has made the choice to experience a different role.

Next is Dominant and submissive. imho ... these labels refer more to the dynamics of a power exchange that may or may not include SM.

Finally the Switch, which imho is either someone who enjoys SM from both the Topping role as well as the bottoming role. These individuals, i think, would most likely have a balance of sorts where their dominant and submissive natures are concerned and seem to enjoy both the dynamics of D/s and the kink of SM ... in varying degrees .... at different times ... with different partners.

i realize these is simplistic, but i hope that it serves it purpose for what i feel as i voice my opinion.

i view myself as a submissive who is primarily turned on by the dynamics of TPE .... and pleasing others. As far as the SM part .... i enjoy the kink as far as i have explored ... and it only serves to intensify the exchange of power.

My first partner was a Switch .... and since i had no idea at the time what a Dominant or a submissive was ..... i sure had not clue about a switch. During our relationship i would have to say that i took a try at topping ..... but did not view myself as anything other than a submissive. my attitude had been that i would do whatever was requested of me to provide pleasure to my DOM. If the request seemed to skirt the fringes of what a Dominant’s actions might be ..... i did not view myself as being a submissive trying out “being a Dominant” but rather a submissive obeying her Dom.

Did i find that i “needed” this experience to be a better submissive ... no. i found that i needed this experience because it was part of surrendering control, trusting, and pleasing. Did i feel comfortable in this role ..... yes and no. No because i am neither a Top or a Dominant .... yes because i was pleasing my Dominant as i learned more about my nature.

Imho ..... the benefits of trying both Topping and Bottoming ..... Dominating or submitting is that most humans are a naturally a combination of dominance and submissiveness .... and although the degree of dominance and submissiveness varies ..... it is .... mho that there are very few who are either 100% Dominant or submissive, but there are many who might enjoy being on the giving as well as receiving end of the kink of SM.

For those who lean very close to the 100 % scale of either Dominance or submissiveness ... there may very well be NO need or desire to explore that other small part that is them ... and so there would be nothing to gain. For the rest of us ... the experience may very well enhance the definition of who we are ..... what we need .... and what we are willing to or want to share with another. UMM guess that fits the limits thing.

For me ....... the experience helped to define bits and pieces of who i am ... what i needs and what i am willing to do for the Dominant in my life. i also see that it is more a personal choice and not a requirement.

just a different point of view

Storm

i agree with you, Storm; i can't imagine anyone being 100% Dominant or submissive. That doesn't seem to me to be a complete expression of any whole human being, but then again, i'm no expert. When i say that i've never had any desire to dominate a partner, what i mean more precisely is that i've never had any desire to have or wield control over anyone within an intimate relationship. In every vanilla aspect of my life i am, and have always been, quite assertive and in control. But that has never been something i've done for pleasure; it's been more a matter of what i viewed as a necessary aspect of surviving out there. It's like any other type of life choice you could make: there are pros and cons to any situation you choose. But personally, given a choice, i prefer the challenges and rewards of submission to those of dominance (even though, as i said, my experience with dominance is strictly in the vanilla world).

Oddly enough, if you told any vanilla i know that i'm into BDSM, i think 90% of them would guess i was dominant. On the other hand, 90% of other lifestylers would probably peg me for a submissive. And i think that's probably not terribly uncommon.

Peace
firebaby

<<Oddly enough, if you told any vanilla i know that i'm into BDSM, i think 90% of them would guess i was dominant. On the other hand, 90% of other lifestylers would probably peg me for a submissive. And i think that's probably not terribly uncommon. >>

firebaby:
I believe that you've really hit the mark. I don't think it's at all uncommon for very dominant people to be submissive sexually. I'm unqualified to really comment on the psychological basis for this (though my sub babydoll did publish an excellent paper on that very subject last year), but I'm quite sure it's the rule rather than the exception.

--AN

I guess that if I had to post for the first time, that this would be the subject that I would want to post to. As I have read all the posts up to this point I have found several good points, and some that I am not sure that I agree with.

I agree that if it is not your nature that you can not be a Dominant/Top/Daddy, (or what have you) or a submissive, slave, bottom, boy, boi, etc. I do think that there may be some things to be learned. Someone near the top of this thread said something about learning the techniques and such. Well, in my opinion it is good for the bottom to know those techniques as well. I believe that it promotes safety and sanity. If you know the right way then you know if the activity is being performed properly or not. This is not to say that you have to learn this by actually doing the activity. You may learn by having someone who is knowledgeable in said activity perform it on you.

I also take into account that we all start at the bottom. Isenburg did not start as CEO of Disney. We come into this world at the bottom, helpless, unable to do for ourselves. We grow, and we learn. Then off to school we go. We start at the bottom there too. We move up as we go along, provided we do what is expected of us, just to start at the bottom again when we get to High School, or Higher education, or the work force. (I am gonna tie all this together in just a second). If I had to claim any of the sub-sects of the BDSM community I would have to claim "Old Guard." The traditions there say that everyone starts at the bottom. Even if you are a Dominant you start from the bottom. IMO if you know what submission is and how it works, how can that keep you from being a quality Dominant. I currently have an "Old Guard" mentor and have learned and continue to learn a great deal from him.

I started in this lifestyle around 5 years ago, (those are calendar years not "leather years"). From the time I started I always felt that I should at least have some knowledge of the other side. So, I went out and enlisted a Domme friend of mine to beat on me. It wasn't bad. I don't know what the folks who like it get out of it, but I tried it. Partly so I would know what each implement felt like. I also feel that part of being a responsible Dominant is knowing what the submissive is going through. Before I have my girl try something new I try it myself. I have been stuck with needles, and I have even felt a single tail.
Did I learn anything by this. Yes, that I have a high tolerance for pain but that I am not a masochist.

I can't speak for the masses, but I can speak to the fact that I have learned a great deal from being on the other side so to speak. Hope this gives you something to chew on.

To firebaby:

"Oddly enough, if you told any vanilla i know that i'm into BDSM, i think 90% of them would guess i was dominant. On the other hand, 90% of other lifestylers would probably peg me for a submissive. And i think that's probably not terribly uncommon."

And oddly enough firebaby ...... if you would ask those who know me in the "Nilla" world they would say the same about me ......... but would be DEAD wrong. What little that i present to the real world ...... appears to another’s to be that of a very self confident ... in control ..... aloof ...... aggressive ..... assertive and dominant personality.

What they have really been exposed to is a well honed "Survivor personality" ..... one that is so very uncomfortable in that role that her "fear of being found out" is shielded by her appearing to be very aloof.

To AldoNadi

"I believe that you've really hit the mark. I don't think it's at all uncommon for very dominant people to be submissive sexually."

i would agreed but may i say that there are a few of us around who are service ..... socially ..... and sexually submissive simply because that is who and what we are. i mean no disrespect in that statement ....... just something that i have found to be overlooked much of the time when discussing aspects of this lifestyle. Perhaps it is because first and foremost ........ people usually zero in on the SEX and the KINK of the lifestyle ......... or the D/s as it pertains to SEX.

And please ........ do not get me wrong for i think that is great and also where the majority of interest and curiosity is initially based. imho .... it just seems at times that the other is put on the shelf and left there until there is something relevant brought up in discussion.

ummmmm, both of these big feet i am pulling from my also BIG mouth <g>

It appears that it is far more common ... and more frequently discussed ... this Dominant in real life and submissive in sex life.

To scbootblack:

"I agree that if it is not your nature that you cannot be a Dominant/Top/Daddy, (or what have you) or a submissive, slave, bottom, boy, bi, etc. I do think that there may be some things to be learned. Someone near the top of this thread said something about learning the techniques and such. Well, in my opinion it is good for the bottom to know those techniques as well. I believe that it promotes safety and sanity. If you know the right way then you know if the activity is being performed properly or not. This is not to say that you have to learn this by actually doing the activity. You may learn by having someone who is knowledgeable in said activity perform it on you."

Again i must agree but also add that my first Dom enjoyed experiencing many of the same things (i guess that is the switch in him) that i experienced when he did them to me. It was a while ... but at one point i realized that he enjoyed that ..... so i was determined to learn what i could in order to provide that for him.

Topping was really not something that i was good at or that i enjoyed all that much .... other then the enjoyment of pleasing "HIM." i will own the fact that practice did improve my skill level and that Dominant praised me on the fact that i not only was willing to please him in that way but also that i had taken the time to learn the techniques ass well as i had. GO figure ........ <g>

"Before I have my girl try something new I try it myself. I have been stuck with needles, and I have even felt a single tail."

that is good that you do that ... and i do believe that somewhere in my reading ...... that was something that was mentioned as a "MUST DO" for all Dominants and TOPS when exploring new ideas ... toys .... fantasies and such. To me that seems only logical and actually "the right thing to do" before trying something on you partner.

i have been to a few educational on hands type workshops that were for the sole purpose of acquainting both sides of the coin to a specific "toy" or type of play.

Ok ....... enough said from this side of the road.

Have a loving day

Storm

<<I also take into account that we all start at the bottom. Isenburg did not start as CEO of Disney. We come into this world at the bottom, helpless, unable to do for ourselves. We grow, and we learn. >>

i really feel it's important to mention here that "bottom" doesn't mean the same thing in your example that it does in the BDSM lifestyle. In our parlance, "bottom" isn't synonymous with "inexperienced," "new," or "least in status." Those of us who live as bottoms/submissives/slaves do not consider ourselves to be so because we've simply not gone farther up the ladder (for lack of desire or effort or ability). And it's not a reflection of these lacks that keeps us there - it's the need to be who we are. Because to have the heart to live as an expression of our true selves is the epitome of success, regardless of what the outside world views as success.

IMO, of course.

Peace
firebaby

Since I've never been that orthodox, I wouldn't much argee that walking mile in any sides shoes would make that person a better Dom or sub. It's been said here before, but it all goes down to the desire of the person. If the person truely desires to be the best Dominant they can be, than why do they have to practice being a sub first? I have obsolutely no dominant desires whatsoever, yet I'm supposed to experience domination before I can be ready for servitude? Sounds pretty strange to me. And it wouldn't give me the "Dom's perspective" since I would be in it wholeheartedly. If I want to see the Doms perspective, I'll read about, or talk to other Dom's about it.

Storm:
let me further explain. When I say "submissive sexually" I generally mean "lifestyle submissive," as it pertains to the whole bag of dimes. I guess, since there's no proper term for it, I use "sex" to describe the whole act of TPE, be it receiving a whipping (because I like to give them) or fetching me a glass of water. I guess its a flawed semantic system, but it's what I use. Still, no hard feelings. Get those feet out of your mouth, you don't know where they've been...well I guess you do...but you get my point.
  Really, I agree with you! If the "outside" world people would focus less on the sex and more on the EMOTIONAL satisfaction of D/s, there would be much less stigma associated with lifestyle D/s. I know I'm reiterating over again what many other people have already said before, but I think it bears being rehashed.

-AN

The general message was that though not always the case it is always possible to learn something from the other side. Even is all we learn is that the grass isn't greener on the other side.

-AN wrote - <<If the "outside" world people would focus less on the sex and more on the EMOTIONAL satisfaction of D/s, there would be much less stigma associated with lifestyle D/s.>>

This kind of "jumped out" at me.
Do we, the "inside" world people, focus on the emotional satisfaction of D/s?

I've done very little "scening". My experiences have been one-on-one.
From what I have *seen* in the *scene*, it seems like the emphasis IS on the sex play. The particular partner(s) is not necessarily an overriding issue - just to experience the physical activity.
I condemn no one for what they like or enjoy...
AND it is my goal to start attending group activities with like-minded people.

But, my submissiveness is wrapped up in my *intimacy* with another.
In my social/work life I am very dominant. I am strong, independent and can be bossy and shout from the rooftops my displeasure about injustices, etc.
<wooooo.....makes me tired!>

So - in my intimate relationship - I choose to RELINQUISH it all to Someone I trust, respect and yes, love.
It is the most satisfying feeling in the world for me.
It encompasses every aspect of my being - the physical, emotional and spiritual.
It is where I find security and respite from the world - and often, from *myself*.
:) It's a good thing........
NOW - if I can just find that "Prince Domming"!

dssublimity says:

>I've done very little "scening". My experiences
>have been one-on-one. From what I have *seen*
>in the *scene*, it seems like the emphasis
>IS on the sex play. The particular partner(s)
>is not necessarily an overriding issue - just
>to experience the physical activity. I condemn
>no one for what they like or enjoy...
>AND it is my goal to start attending group
>activities with like-minded people.

Ahhhh, I have to disagree here...

BDSM is *not* always about sex or even SM play. It can be about service, a parental/child relationship (age play) - lots of different things. Not every scene leads to nakedness, orgasms or SM.

I was out X-mas shopping with a service submissive and he considered our trip to Costco a "scene." He observed public D/s protocol, addressed me as Ma'am, pushed the cart, opened doors and was generally helpful. We both enjoyed it.

I can give you lots of other examples, but when you start pigeon-holing BDSM someone can always give you an example of something outside that ideal.
 

Ann

Ann,
    I very much agree with you. The service aspects and the aspects that do not revolve around sex or play (SM or slap and tickle) are not flasy and sexy thus they do not garner the amount of attention that those that do, do.

Justin Medlin

Ann and Justin -

Help me understand this.
By "service aspects" are you speaking about one on one interatcion between people?
If so, I agree.

By "scening," I am referring to group activities at specific functions - the stage play, etc. The type of events in which many people get together, scene and play with those besides their significant partners.

I think our definitions of "scene" may be a little confused??

Sublimity

Sublimity,

Gosh, all thse funny words we've coined for stuff we do.

Um, when I say "scene" my meaning is ANY BDSM interaction between ANY person or number of people.

That can include a beating or getting my bathroom cleaned or having a submissive accompany myself and a partner to an event, in a service role. To me (and the boy who pushed my cart at Costco), the interaction is a "scene."

Does that help?

Ann
who is going off to practice her bullwhip

I agree with Ann....D/s is a way of life. It should be in all you do...not just ~sceneing~...I try to use in all that I do at all times. It takes a lot of work to control yourself at all time. But the rewards are great.

scene: an act in a play or musical, or part of a TV show "remember the scene where he was getting ready to buttfuck her with lilacs in his hair?"

scene: what you did to get your parents pissed at you in the grocery stor, mall, et al.

scene: what your parents did after you did yours.

scene: the activity that takes place between two or more people in a specific instance, be it centered around slap and tickle or S/M

scene: the activity that takes place between two or more people without others even being aware, say at the grocery store or mall (brings back childhood memories doesn't it?) that has been planned (at least by one party) in advance.

the scene: I think this comes from the drug hazed days of the 60's when everyone was trying to "make the scene". Now to perverts everywhere it encompasses (or seems to) anything and everyone who engages in whatever they engage in, wherever they may engage in it at, but usually refers to the public community.

service: encompasses a broad range of possible activites for those who have a NEED to serve another person. Examples: lighting cigs, serving drinks, answering phone, fixing dinner serving as host or hostess at community events or parties. They do these things because they have a need to serve and serving that one person can take on many different aspects, from personal, valet, major domo, butler, chamber maid, sexual, fetish etc. Please don't pick me apart, this is a very loose, broad definition. But I hope it helps.

Justin Medlin

http://www.sc-lock.com/Lady_Beth/lb-jan02.htm

this might be a perspective that some can identify with. I know that I can, but I love this lady and think that she often expresses a lot of how I feel, but more more beautifully than I ever could. At any rate if you have a moment, take a look at Lady Beth's view on Service and Gifts.

Justin Medlin
Humbled Poodle

To get back to the original question I would like to quote from "The Original Leatherman's Handbook" by Larry Townsend (The complete First Edition Text) p. 16

And I Quote:
"At the start, you cannot anticipate your own potential, regardless of the range of your day-dreaming. As a beginner, you must literally "start from the bottom", find an experienced leatherman and learn the ropes from him. Each can have a fulfilling experience "first time out" if the combination is fortuitous. The a guy's first partner-first S- is skillful and patient he can open a tremendous vista for his disciple. And it is here that the purist approach can be the most effective-when the top man works with a fresh, unstructured youth."

turning to p. 27 of the same text:

"When you learn the ropes, you will discover that the difference you originally percieved is not as sharp and clear as you though it was. In my opinion, backed by an overwhelming majority of the leathermen whom I queried on the subject, every good topman has also made the scene as an M. To a lesser extent the converse is true. While I do not feel the M's experience need be as extensive on the other side of the coin, if he hasn't tried it all he is missing a great personal awakening." End Quote.

Just something I found that may give you folks something more to chew on. And more over drives home my thoughts and opinions on the topic.

Thank you for letting me speak my mind.
J

Oh gosh, i didn't realize i was going against the Commandments as handed down in The Handbook. Please forgive this ignorant slave's presumptuousness in holding a contrary opinion to an expert. :)

Peace
firebaby

Sir-Rikard

"It takes a lot of work to control yourself at all time. But the rewards are great."

I say -----"excellent"

Kate

LOL - firebaby...

hee hee...

Don't get me wrong. I think Larry Townsend writes HOT SM smut. Even if it is boy-on-boy (hey, I'm an equal opportunity pervert) I think reading his stuff is an education as well as titillating.

<g> I'm not sure WHO'S handbook it is. I haven't seen it fall out of anyone's toybag recently...

Ann