This week's all-new BDSM-related HOT TOPIC comes from the creative pen of Nightheron!

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Hypothetical situation: A married man or woman likes to top, but their spouse isn't interested. So, on the sly, they go to S&M clubs and top people in public. Maybe they even have a regular partner for this. At no time do they ever have genital contact with their submissive, yet both Top and bottom gain sexual satisfaction from the encounters.

So--if a Dominant tops someone other than their wife or husband, without their partners' knowledge, is that infidelity? Even if they don't have sexual contact? Is it morally considered infidelity? Is it legally considered infidelity?

 
Nightheron

Well, in my world BDSM activity is extremely intimate, whether it involves sexual contact per se, or not. And if this isn't true in your hypothetical case, i can't see why the person would fail to tell his/her spouse. So, the very act of doing it and purposely not allowing the spouse to know indicates the very real possibility that it's something that at least one of the partners might perceive as something akin to infidelity.

If it's nothing intimate, there's no reason to keep it secret. If it is intimate, then it's infidelity, in my opinion.

Peace
firebaby

Here's the rule of thumb that my boyfriend mentioned when he and I discussed this topic: If it can give you an orgasm, it's sex. Regardless of the genitalia, I think that topping and bottoming are very intimate, to the point where indulging *without* the partner's knowledge and consent is infidelity.
Legally speaking, it's probably a moot point since a lot of BDSM activities are illegal anyway, and very few states actually enforce the blue laws against adultery/infidelity.
I think that if it were brought up in divorce court, the judge would take a rather dim view of such proceedings.

If you have to keep secrets from one another, why are you married to that person? So my answer is yes.

Justin Medlin
Not THE Orginal
   Poodle

Nice topic =)

I strongly feel that this type of situation would be considered infedility either way it goes. S&M is kink it is all about kink....nothing more....So example for ya to show you my thoughts.

A man and a woman is married....the man shows deep interest in the lifestyle and she does not wish to be bothered with it. You are now faced with a delima....what do I do? Do I continue to be faithful to my wife or do I act upon my "selfish" feelings?

It would be no different of a situation if it were reversed for a submissive.

S&M is still going to eventually bring intimacy into ones life if it is an ongoing thing...one needs trust to be able to take things to a higher level.

So the one thing that is most important to begin a S&M session ....is trust....well if it is trust a person seeks then what do they think their doing to their wife...going against the thing that their wife needs as well as themselves and that is trust. How would the Dom feel if it were the wife going behind his back? Even if he knows and she asks for an open relationship and he says no...what do you think is going to happen? It is still going to happen no matter what. If that person wants it then they are going to seek it. Personally this couple does not need to be in a relationship together....it is just showing very strong signs of problems for the future.

If someone is going to proceed with the lifestyle they need to choose between the vanilla world or the dark side. As they say ....you can not have your cake and eat it too.

I see too much of this that goes on....infedility...lies...selfishness and being self centered....then people wonder why their relationship fails.

*~dawn~*

getting off my
soap box

From: Thorn4MyRose
To: Nightheron

Good topic, Brent. Nothing like wrestling with an ethical/moral dilemma to which there's no right answer first thing in the morning. <eg>

I think (keyword) that where your hypothetical couple went astray was at the 'other spouse not being interested' point. How often do we hear that one only to find out that 'not interested' meant that the BDSM'er didn't have the fortitude to actually ASK (in other words, they already BELIEVE their spouse would never go for it, or that they'd have to deal with judgments, etc., so why risk even bringing it up?) For that matter, how many actually try applying any skill to help their spouse develop interest? Nah. That's too much like work. It's easier to just say that their spouse is pure vanilla and rationalize whatever happens next off that premise.

So, Brent, to get at whether or not this hypothetical infidelity is indeed that, what steps did the BDSM'er take to try to interest their spouse before making the decision to go elsewhere? Did s/he give the seriousness of the issue its due and expend every possible resource in trying to convey their passion to their spouse before coming to the conclusion that it was no longer a productive effort? Is it hypothetically possible that the spouse did communicate a lack of interest, but that they've always had an understanding in their relationship that either is always free to go pursue interests that the other may not share?

Good topic though. ;-)
T.

oooh great topic.

two things:
1) if you feel a need to be deceitful, then it's wrong; whether it's "infidelity" or simply "lying"

2) any intimate encounter is cheating if you don't have your spouse's *informed* consent...

(and play is intimate to me, whether there's genital contact, or orgasms or not... because it's psychologically intimate... i'm sharing the most intimate part of myself with Someone: my soul)

my buck fifty,
eclypse

As a newcomer to this board,I would love to share my thoughts on this one. My wife and I have been into kink for only one year. We have been married for thirteen. As the top, I can tell you that upon exploring this untapped area of our sexual experience, we have never been so in love and intimate. I find myself thinking of her and the things we do much more often than in our vanilla days. I personally would find this experience outside of my marriage quite emotionally confusing. The intimacy during and after is just to great. Maybe this is because of our "long" marriage before kink. Bottom line...It would be infidelity for me even if she knew.
Thanks for a place to finally be able to talk about this.

Brent

A fantastic topic and one that had you asked it ...... ummmmm a year ago i must own the fact that my response would probably be different.
Yep ... i have done a lot of growing in the past year ..... thank goodness for small favors <smiling>

At this point i would like to say that i agree with Thorn ....

I think (keyword) that where your hypothetical couple went astray was at the 'other spouse not being interested' point

Not being interested in exactly what ... would be my question..... in working on their marriage .... in taking that extra step because you love someone to know and understand them a bit better .... in exploring avenues that would bring the spark and the intimacy back into their lives ..... in perhaps staying married.

Having been there and also having DONE that .... i do speak from an experience base of sorts.

i was the married partner that was guilty of both immoral behavior as well as infidelity but was also fortunate enough to discover this lifestyle. i truly do not know if i would still have the interest or the insight into who i am if it had not been with someone other than my husband. The fact that i was miserable and in a marriage that was abusive .... wondering just what was wrong with me ... and i had been wondering that for years i will add ..... did not change the fact that i was indeed being immoral as well as visiting the arena of infidelity.

Initially ..... i found more then my share of justification for my behavior .... and really did nothing to share this interest with my husband. i can give anyone who wants to listen at least a thousand reasons to justify the "whys" of not having this discussion ..... all of which amount to my being either afraid or unable to make a choice that was honest ... open .... truthful and then act on that choice.

i had been wanting to leave for years and i will not cloud the issue with all of the reasons that i did not. i will simply say that it was that i felt i was to blame for all of our problems that kept me staying and trying to figure out what i could do to make things “right.” The fact that sex was a BIG BIG issue with us did not help at all.

i did struggle with telling my husband about this new found interest... wondering if it was something that might help "fix" what had been wrong with our marriage.

Well i finally did because i found that now there was an interest in sex and my sexuality that had never been there before. Since one of the constant complaints from my now almost ex was that i was a frigid “bitch“ who was so selfish and unconcerned about his needs i felt that this new “me“ might be the key to all that had been wrong. Sooooo i left a copy of Different Loving out for him to read... but did continue to see the Dom that introduced me to BDSM. At this time ... the hubby was living with a friend for we had seriously decided that a divorce was the only answer.

Before he got a chance to come over and find the book ...... my daughter walked in on a rather obvious scene of Mom being flogged by this guy and we talked and we disagreed. He did some reading and at one point actually did a bit of exploring ..... which did turn out to be an interesting twist. And for those of you who may be wondering ... yes the sex did improve some.

What happen though .... was that i was forced to accept that is was not the sex .... it was that we just did not fit and had not fit for many ... many years. My insecurities had kept me in something that was neither good for me .... good for him ... and sure did nothing at all for my self esteem.

There is defiantly an intimacy that is so much greater in this lifestyle .... so much so that when the foundation for intimacy is not there .... the resulting emotions are void of anything that resembles love .. caring ... concern .... and acceptance.

It took a walk on the edge of that degree of intimacy for me to be able to see that there was no foundation on which to build with my husband. Would i have eventually seen it ... perhaps sp ... would i have eventually seen it had i continued to play the game of infidelity in the arena of this lifestyle ..... perhaps so .... but for sure i was able to see it when i made the choice to at least given this lifestyle a shot and include my husband.

If what was needed for a solid and intimate relationship had been there all along ... this lifestyle would have added to it .... as it was this lifestyle revealed to both of us that the paramount ingredients needed for what we both were seeking was not there between us.

So i guess that i would have to say that not including your partner ..... going outside of the sanctity of your marriage ... on your own and justifying it by saying that “S/he would not understand or accept or be interested ..... is a cop out ... that is harmful for all involved.

i know that there are people who have made the choice to live two lives for what ever reason ..... but as long as it is not under the guise of “s/he would never accept or understand or be interested ..... or this involvement in this lifestyle does not affect my other relationship ..... or that it is ok to live a secret life because this is what i need ... keeping this life from that “significant other” .... and they are honest with themselves as to the whys ... immoral it may be and a brush with infidelity it surely is ..... it may still be how it must be for that moment in time.

Storm ... who haas been in hiding for a while

A new twist on the old" is that considered cheating" question. Everyone seems to have their definition of a physical threshold which defines infidelity. Jerry Seinfeld defines cheating as “when the nipple makes its first appearance", but in reality it's not any level of intimacy which describes it. Many married couples as consentual swingers. Infidelity (which as a word has no sexual connotations) occurs with deceit, as Eclypse said above.

Afraid9
Speaking From Almost
No Experience What So Ever.

Afraid9

yes ...... deceit... that begins first with denial and the inability to see the truth as the truth. That is IMHO .. and i guess what i did not get across in my post.

i guess that i walked around that fact and i thank you for pointing that out to me. my words explained how i got to the fact that i realized that i was in denial as to the truth of my marriage and the whys of my behavior.

i do however disagree where intimacy is concerned .. for i do not see intimacy as just sexual. i see intimacy as the foundation for any relationship ... as the ability to be open ... honest .... and truthful about all that you are .... your fears .. your confusions ... your aspirations .... your needs ... your desires ... you values .. i guess all that makes you who you are.

That type of intimacy begins long before the sexual or the physical and is more binding. It starts with the first hello and is nurtured moment to moment in any relationship be it friendship ... love ... family ... social or whatever. Again ... this is only my opinion and one that may change as i grow.

Storm

Storm-
You did get that point across in your post. Now that I read the whole thread, I think I may have been redundant.

Always Learning,
Afraid9

Key words here ... on the sly. If you're doing it behind your partner's back, you're being deceitful regardless of the dymanics in your relationship.

Here's the thing, if the husband lies to his wife, how can he be a good Dom? If he would keep things from his wife, what makes a sub think he wouldn't keep things from that sub? Honesty is very important in these situations and I wouldn't like Doms like those, even if they did swing a good flogger.

what about subs (of either sex) that will lie and cheat on their spouses? I know that the dominants are supposed to have a monopoly on all the things that are bad, evil or unpleasant in the world, but even still, I have to rear my head every now and again and say "it takes two".

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
    With
Poodle Flair

Justin..........

If you read my post above .. you will note that i did own what i had done ... changed direction and tried to include my husband or at least discuss it with him.

i was one of those "subs" and i am not all that proud of it..... so i made a change.

it is good on occasion to be reminded ... that if one wants .... one can and will justify. i try and remember that so that i do not fall into that trap again

Storm

As Justin pointed out, it seems to me that it has to work both ways. Dominant or submissive, Top or bottom, a lie is still a lie, deceit is deceit, and it's the wrong thing to do. And not only to the other parties involved--but to oneself as well.

rory

This is a wonderful topic. One I have spoken with Justin before on. I have never nor will I ever understand how trust can be built when the Dom/sub knows that their partner is cheating on a spouse. Is it the old mistress saga where she wins and totally trusts her new husband only to find he has found another mistress to replace her as easily as he replaced his wife? I have more than a few friends who haven't even tried to discuss it with their spouses. They just assume they know them well enough to know they wouldn't be interested. Am wondering....how many of those spouses are thinking and doing the same thing? I also have a friend who did go to her husband and talk to him. He wasn't interested but he supports her interest. Have seen him more than once drop her off for an event and tell her to enjoy the beating. This kind of honesty I do respect. For her it isn't the sex it's the scene. In my opinion. If both partners are aware and consent then it's not infidelity. But if one isn't....it's cheating no matter how you try and justify it. I won't repeat what others have said about being happy in your marriage but do agree with them. Boy what a way to delurk...going back into lurking now. Just felt passionately on this topic.

It is me again.....

i am not sure if this is the place to bring this up ..... but i will depend on Glory to move this is she thinks it should be somewhere else.

Being a person as well as a submissive .... having had some horrendous experiences as a child ..... adopting survival techniques at an early age in order to protect "me"..... having developed some behaviors that not only did i dislike but was also sort of on "auto pilot" with regard to awareness and self control.

It is said that one of the reasons for dishonesty is the realization that what one is doing is wrong and the need to cover that wrong doing up. i think that perhaps there may another .. less obvious reason .. that is subtle.

Betrayal ..... humiliation over a wrong doing ..... constant and continuous berating by another for a wrong doing .... reinforced negative self image and on and on. imho ..... there can develop an unconscious fear of “honesty being used as a weapon against the person” who is being honest.

It could just be me ... or perhaps there is some validity in that thought. It certainly puts into words what my problem with being honest has always been. It has never been that i feared honesty for in reality i have longed to be able to speak honest words and have them heard ... it has been that i feared how that honesty would be used to "tear me to shreds" ..... to "keep me in the grip of guilt and shame" for being me ....... and to "control my words, thoughts, and actions" through that shame and guilt.

That has also been my problem where trusting was concerned ... for you see .... Each and every time that i have made the journey to "trusting" another ...... it has backfired in my face ......

It seems to me ... and i am open to the fact that my view on this may be more then just a bit distorted ... that “insecurities and fear of being accepted for who we are ... how we think .. and what we NEED” be it from a Dominant or submissive point of view ..... is in part, a possible thought to be considered when looking at “cheating” .. “infidelity” ... “dishonesty” .... and “trust”

i am in no way saying that this thought “EXCUSES or JUSTIFIES” such behavior ... just wondering if it is something that we all need to look at just a bit more before “casting a shadow of judgment” on others.

We discuss the word and the ideal of “TRUST” as well as the word “HONESTY” ..... i am forever hearing that “TRUST” is something that is earned .... and develops over time ...... and for now ... i think that my thoughts on that as well as honesty would be best left for not only another time but also another topic for discussion.

For now ... let me just say that ..... imho ... we need to consider not just how a relationship begins ... but the growth of the ones involved in that relationship over time. If one is able to see more clearly things about themselves ..... grow in their trust and their ability to risk a more open honesty ..... then is this not a part of what this lifestyle is all about?

Storm

like storm, the times in the past that i've trusted people, i've wound up getting my throat ripped out... starting with my parents when i was a small child. my older brother sexually molested me for a period of two years starting at age six. my dad had the gall to go and die when i was eight. then my mother up and started using drugs and having different men over every night until she had used up all my dad's money and we had to move back in with my grandparents. then friendships and love relationships all worked out badly. so no wonder i didn't trust easily. and i lied. i lied alot... just to mislead people so that they couldn't get inside my head. and i cheated. hurt him before he had a chance to hurt me... and the cheating was also a desperate attempt to have that deeper trusting relationship i truly needed but didn't want. i didn't realize that until much later. trust is like a leap of faith. when you fall flat on your face, you don't wanna do it again. but when it works, it's the greatest thing in the world. but it takes alot to work past any damage that has already been done. one of the things i like so much about this lifestyle is the emphasis on honesty and trust. i see alot of people, like myself, and like storm, who have been locked away inside themselves for so long... and BDSM is pulling them out again. hmmm i'm tired: that might not make alot of sense.

eclypse

eclypse

thank you for your comments because you know that when i added this last part .... there was a fear that i would stand alone ... with no one knowing what it was that i was talking about.

i wish at times that my life's experiences would have been somewhat different ... for then i would not have known the words that i have written .... but then again ... i would not know as much about life as i do today.

And there is also the fact and reality that the taste of what this lifestyle has to offer ... would not nearly be as sweeting and renewing as it has been and continues to be.

The journey to trusting enough to risk the honesty needed to take trust a bit further has been filled with every emotion known to man and woman alike ........

i can not tell you the number of times i have "set myself up" .... but i sure am glad now that i kept getting up after i got knocked down.

"""". i see a lot of people, like myself, and like storm, who have been locked away inside themselves for so long... and BDSM is pulling them out again. hmmm i'm tired: that might not make a lot of sense. """

yes it made a lot of sense and thank you again

Storm

I know that this isn't the topic of the week anymore, but I just joined up, and wanted to toss my two cents in..

I think that every situation is different, and not every situation is black and white. There are many, many shades of grey mixed in. This is an explosive subject, passions will run high in discussion.
On one hand you have the ones who have been cheated on and lied to, then there are those who have done the cheating and lying, and there are those who have both cheated and lied, and have been cheated on and lied to.
Where do I fall in that mix? I have been cheated on, and lied to, and I have been the "other woman".
It's hard postition to be in, and we are all responsible for our own choices.
I am in a relationship with a married man right now. He is submissive to me, and his wife knows. She is not happy about it, and would like nothing more than for me to disappear from his life. Her reaction to his kinkiness, when he tried to open up and include her, was along the lines of "what are you crazy?", and then a forced therapy session to "cure" him.
It's a difficult road to walk.
Do I wish things were different? Of course I do. I didn't set out to have this relationship, it developed over time. We know that eventually this will come to a choice, but until then I am content. His wife is not throwing down any ultimatums, and neither am I.
In a perfect world, she and I could be friends, and he could get what he needs from both of us, but that's not the case. *smiles*
He should probobly end his marriage, and really be free to be happy and pursue this life. He has his reasons for not doing so. I'm sure having his cake and eating it too is one of them *smiles*

So I guess what I want to say again, is that not every situation is black and white, right and wrong. It depends on the individual(s) involved.
It's not completely fair to say what's right and wrong for any one person. The person in question, has to make that decision.

Thanks for listening :)
Nikki

From a Male Sub's veiw:
I am married and in a relationship which depends on honesty completly. My spouse has had sever problems which stem from her early childhood to early adult years of life which involved sexual and verbal abuse.
I have struggled with her problems for a very long time and even thought of ending the relationship. Acceptance of who we are and knowing we are seperate individuals has given me insight and a freeing expierence to be me.
She has accepted me as I am, male submissive, she has no desires for the lifestyle and has little interest in sex and instead of ending our relationship, as friends and compains we just accepted life as it is. Only through honesty did this happen for me. She accepts me and I accept her just as we are and the honesty keeps us togeather. Its wonderful to us to be able to live seperate lives but come togeather as we do and like I said before honesty was the key.
Without that honesty great harm could have come to us both.
Stuart
~internal dorpha~

Welcome to the Boards Stuart. You know, I know you only just joined LOCK, but I gotta tell you......I may have to sign you up to do a class/discussion on why honesty is still the best path, even when the path sucks. I hope you will be at LOCK's Christmas party this weekend.

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
Who Just Drug
His Ass Home
With Flair In
The Trunk