Dear Jim and marsha,

I thought it would be helpful (during this sloooooow Labor Day weekend, when most folks are likely off filling up on BBQ and making up for lost sleep *g*), to start a few topics in your section to probe your minds about issues near and dear to us all.

We occasionally get newbies in here who have limited lifestyle experience and enter into full-scale Master/slave relationships. Unfortunately they have absolutely no emotional understanding of the differences between consensual lifestyle and abusive attitudes on the part of the Master/Mistress.

Below, I've cut & pasted a message that was recently posted by someone in just this situation. Would you be kind enough to explore the writer's concerns and share your own thoughts about what makes for a responsible, caring lifestyle relationship?

Here goes:

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posted by: singed phoenix

hope someone can give me some insight here. I have been seeing my Mistress for about 6 months now and I am supposed to move in with her come December.

Even at the start, there was never any negotiation. I mean, I wasn’t allowed to have any limits or anything. For instance, she wanted to brand me like after a couple months and I did not want that so soon and I told her so, but very respectfully. This resulted in her becoming very angry and punishment for me. A lot of punishment. And then once we had been together for a month or so, I tried to tell her that I have needs. I wasn’t going to offer her a grocery list of things, I was just going to say mainly that I have a need to feel secure in the relationship and that I have a need to feel valued. But she threw me out and became angry when I respectfully tried to bring the topic up. So I have never spoken of my needs again and I have just gone with the flow and tried to do everything she asks of me.

There have been many things that have happened that I have felt uneasy about. I have had to go to the doctor twice in order to take care of health issues that came up from her punishing me or telling me to do things without knowing what was involved and not believing me when I said it would make me sick to do them. I have taken many hard punishments for things that are (imo) not great crimes. Things like not being able to find something she asked me to find, or like maybe not buttering the toast the way she likes it (which I did not know when I first buttered the toast). And she has done things to me, like piercing me, without knowing how to do them properly and it has ended badly. And she will not listen to me when I try to tell her that what she is doing is unsafe and it only ends up in more punishment because she does not like to be told things. But I am very respectful and never tell, but try to gently inform in the most respectful and submissive way I know. I am not bratty and do not top from the bottom. Please, I am a good slave. But I am not complaining about these things because I know that as a slave it doesn’t matter if the punishment is fair and that I gave my body to her. Just trying to give you some back ground.

I am never purposely disobedient but I have made mistakes like spilling things or maybe mis-speaking or maybe being a few minutes late. I expect to be punished for these things, but I am just trying to get across the point that I do not purposely do anything to disobey or hurt her. I am a very good slave. I do extra and keep going and going, working, even when I am so tired I am going to drop. I try very hard to always do a good job and be obedient, work hard, never argue or disobey even if I am in a lot of discomfort, or exhausted, whatever. I am not perfect, but I do try very hard and I will say that I work harder than anyone I know and I am a good person. Kind and caring and very loving.

This is not a love relationship. My desire to serve is stronger even than my desire for love. This is M/s. This is as TPE as one can get while not living with my Mistress and that is due to change soon when I move in.

But there is something that bothers me greatly. And I worry about it greatly with the move coming up soon. My Mistress has sent me away two times. Once was when I tried to tell her about my needs (above). This past time, it was because I interrupted her and I was disrespectful. I was relaying a story about something at work and what had happened had made me angry and I got very emotional telling the story and I let the event bother me to the point where I had forgotten my place while talking to her. I was not purposely disrespectful, but I was ranting and raving about what had happened at work and so not acting very slave-like. Which is wrong, I know so yes, I know that punishment was in order and I am not complaining about that.

But my Mistress send me away again. The second time. And it has been almost 2 weeks since she has contacted me, just like it was that long the last time. I am feeling horrible and like a bad slave and rejected and all that stuff. Because I generally spend 2-3 solid days per week at her house. I do not know if this kind of punishment is normal and maybe I am just being a wimp and expecting too much.

 I have been in M/s relationships before. None of them have been like this. I am not a player or a short timer. I do not hop from person to person. I have one, and I stay and I am true and loyal. I have never been sent away before by anyone and I guess I always thought that being sent away was like a way harsh punishment that one would only deserve for something major. Like a breach of trust or dishonesty or serious disobedience or a pattern of bad or bratty behavior.

I cannot talk to my Mistress about this. I worry about when I move in with her. Will she send me out into the cold with nowhere to go? Will I be without a home? I cannot talk to her or ask. She will say, “The way to not get sent away or thrown out is to behave.” But I do behave as well as I can. But I make mistakes and I will always make them because I am not perfect.

So my question is … what kinds of things are slaves normally sent away for? Am I being a wimp here or does it seem that the punishment is too harsh. I have been as honest as I can be here and I hope I will get some honest answers. I need a meter stick. My owner does not allow me to have friends or talk to others and we are not part of any groups. So I have no frame of reference. If people say I am being a wimp I will just shut up and toughen up. If people say maybe I have cause for concern then…well, I don’t know what I will do. I do not think my Mistress will be open for discussion. I just do not want to get thrown out into the cold with nowhere to go and the emotional pain of it all is truly very hurtful to me.

Ok I amj sorry for being so long. But it is a long story. I am lurking even though I do not get to use the computer much I come here each time I am online. I like this place very much

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I and slave marsha are often approached by one half of a D/s or M/s pairing. The person approaching often describes a situation, identifies a problem, concerns or issues, and asks us for answers or recommendations. We have been approached many times by people with a situation similar to the one described above. I have always taken the position of not trying to analyze or assess a relationship unless both parties are present or at least I have heard from both sides. I am in no way questioning the veracity of the poster; there are simply too many variables and interpretations involved to be able to come up with a reasoned and informed response to her questions.

Having said that, I am more than willing to offer my opinions and positions on the issue of SM and abuse. slave marsha and I speak frequently about SM and abuse, particularly in M/s relationships, and have done so for the past 4 years. There is no question that D/s and M/s relationships have significant potential for abuse, either because the Dominant is indeed an abuser, or because he or she has very little experience in handling such relationships. Unfortunately, the traditional/vanilla tests for abuse are not very effective in determining whether a D/s or M/s relationship is abusive. To counter that, I and slave marsha have developed an alternative paradigm for measuring the possibility of abuse in D/s and M/s relationships -- but that is the subject of another post.

Of primary importance in any M/s relationship, is the principle of what I call "ethical ownership." If a person is going to assume complete control over another, they must also assume complete responsibility. An Owner is responsible for his or her property. To me, if one is truly living in a Master/slave relationship where one person has control over another, ethical ownership must be the foundation upon which that relationship is built.

I love the term "ethical ownership"--so now can you tell us what it means to you, personally? :-)

(Gosh, I feel as if I have you two all to myself this weekend. I LIKE IT! *g*)

hugs,

G.

p.s. if you could post your own view on the differences between lifestyle and abuse (or point us to a URL where we can read something you've either written or agree with), that would be fabulous. Thank you! For every person who will actually post a message here, hundreds more are out there reading, so please know you're helping thousands.

great topic! cant wait to watch it unfold.

FaerieGirl

P.S. Welcome Master Jim and slave marsha

Gloria, I'll jump in here and show these two that you really do have active participants!

Given your concept of 'ethical ownership' how is this the same or different from the - I guess I have to call it - "sense of responsibility" someone who is put in charge and responsible for other people feels in everyday life circumstances, such as: officers and their soldiers, parents for children, teachers for students, etc?

OMG! I logged on late today, assuming there'd be nothing to enable and HOLY CANNOLI, BATMAN!

Whatsamatta, all you guys? Is Labor Day so vanilla you had to sneak back here for the hot sauce? :-)

HUGS to all for visiting over this holiday weekend!

xxxx,

Glory

I advanced the term "ethical ownership" several years ago to describe the responsibility that, in my mind, a Master needs to have toward a slave. An ethical owner is responsible for all aspects of his/her slave's life. He or she is also responsible for the consequences of any decisions made or directives given to the slave. To me, that means that an ethical owner is concerned with the mental, emotional, and physical health of his or her property. In addition, and very importantly, an ethical owner concentrates on the slave's development.

Conversely, an ethical owner is also responsible for his or her own mental, emotional and physical health. Additionally, an ethical owner must concentrate on his or her own personal development, just as he or she concentrates on the development of the slave.

The question was raised as to how ethical ownership differs from the sense of responsibility a teacher has for students, a commander has for his troops, or a parent has for a child. First, let me say that the sense of responsibility in these three situations varies greatly. A parent is far more responsible for a child than a teacher is for students. A military commander's sense of responsibility may include matters of life and death, but that sense of responsibility probably does not extend to all aspects of the soldier's life. The responsibility that exists in a parent/child relationship comes closest to the responsibility embodied in the concept of ethical ownership. Parents are responsible for all aspects of a child's life, their health, and their development. The differences between a Master/slave and parent/child relationship, however, are many. First of all, Master/slave relationships are not based on differences in levels of maturity, knowledge, experience or the state of physical development. A Master/slave dynamic engages two adults in a relationship in which both have consented for one to have control and responsibility over the other. Unlike a parent/child relationship, where control is actually lessened as the child grows older in order to prepare the child for adulthood, in Master/slave relationships, very often the control becomes more comprehensive as the relationship advances and the individuals involved become more experienced and able to accommodate higher levels of control and responsibility.

For the past 4 years, slave marsha and I have been talking about the difference between SM and abuse, particularly as applied to Master/slave relationships. The traditional tests that are used to determine if a relationship is abusive in the vanilla community center on control. Very often the test questions for whether you are in an abusive relationship focus on whether a person has control of various aspects of your life, for example, who you see, where you go, financial decisions, employment decisions, etc. Unfortunately, many leather and leather-friendly organizations have adopted these vanilla-based models as they address the issue of SM v. abuse.

If one takes these tests to their logical conclusion, i.e., that control is inherently bad and independence is good, then many, if not most, healthy Master/slave relationships will be judged as abusive since the Master has control over most if not all aspects of the slave's life -- including such things as finances, freedom to come and go as one pleases, employment decisions, etc. There is no question that abuse can and does occur in Master/slave relationships. In fact, because of the nature of Master/slave relationships, as Guy Baldwin once said, abusers may even be more likely to be found in the M/s community than in the greater SM/leather community.

Living in a Master/slave relationship and viewing the tests for abuse that were being promulgated in our own BDSM/leather community, a challenge was laid before us: is it possible to develop a general means for assessing M/s relationships in terms of abuse while not condemning all M/s relationships simply because they are focused on control? What arose was the alternative paradigm. The paradigm is neither perfect nor scientific. It simply offers a non-control based way of assessing M/s relationships. The paradigm consists of such questions as:

Do you believe that your M/s relationship is the cause of happiness and fulfillment in your life?

Do you trust your Master?

Can you function in everyday life?

Is your relationship built on honesty and respect?

Do you feel that you are valued and that the Master is concerned for your physical, mental and emotional well-being?

Do you believe that the M/s relationship is helping to develop qualities and characteristics that you would like to see more of in your life?

Make no mistake, we believe in holding abusers accountable for emotional and physical violence. We encourage survivors of abuse to seek help and support. But we also believe that an alternative paradigm like the one offered here is needed so that all Master/slave relationships are not automatically deemed abusive.

Hello Master Jim

Thank you for writing that and making clearer. i agree totally that it is inappropriate to impose vanilla or even D/s (but not M/s) guidelines of abuse to M/s relationships which has been the source of my trouble in getting good meterstick. It is hard enough for someone involved in such a relationship to put down, myself included. i can't imagine the trouble other people have.

What you posted isn't like checklist that can just be answered in a single sitting. And i do not think that a single event or single sampling of feelings at any one moment can be used to differentiate M/s from abuse. i think it is something that has to be looked at over longer term. i think that sometimes it is not a bed of roses and that sometimes, i feel like piece of shit. Sometimes i think, in this kind of relationship, it is just going to be that way. Other times i am blissfully happy and i feel valued. i have just been using the question, "Am i happy overall?" as a guide so far and those questions you posted help very much, expanded on my own question, even though, like my own question, they will take some time for me to get a kind of steady state reading on.

Thank you again for posting your thoughts. i am so happy that you and marsha are here. i have many, many questions. It is big treat for me to get to talk to someone who i feel i can relate to. Thank you very, very much and thanks Gloria Brame for having this site.

(General posting)

Some excellent points have been captured here already, but I'd like to boil down one particular issue regarding the balancing of responsibilities in a Master/slave relationship.

slave marsha mentioned in another posting (damn if I can remember which one it was -- but that's what I get for having to catch up on several days of missing the boards <lol>) that her 'contract' had been abandoned to be replaced by a simple premise: she would serve and obey. The elegance of such succinct clarity is a sterling example in describing the balance that, IMO, explains the difference between 'lifestyle' v. 'abuse' -- and that is that the dominant's basic 'contract' with their slave is: to protect and control.

Of course, you CAN make it much more complicated. ;-)

Be safe,
Thorn

Hiya Master Jim and marsha :)

Ethical Ownership. Gawd, talk about a term that needed to exist!

master Jim ... your paradigm may not be perfect or scientific in your eyes, but holy smokes is it a solid framework. I agree, the need for this is clear.

Craig