Hi, folks.

I hope you will all join me in welcoming two extraordinary individuals to our Boards. The truly wondrous Cleo DuBois, renowned sadist and educator, and Fakir Musafar, shaman and a founder of the body modification movement (Fakir coined the expression "modern primitives"), are our special guests for the month of May. Cleo and Fakir (who are very happily married, by the way) will be sharing news with us here about their work, lives, and various creative projects.

If you have a copy of DIFFERENT LOVING, open it up to find interviews we conducted with them back in 1991. Or visit the following links and read rougher cuts of their interviews right here:

CLEO DUBOIS
http://gloria-brame.com/diflove/cleo.html

FAKIR MUSAFAR
http://gloria-brame.com/diflove/fakir.html

Again, please join me in welcoming them to our Boards and please don't hesitate to ask questions or otherwise enjoy a dialogue with this most exceptional couple.

Glory

In 1991 Gloria Brame contacted me for an interview on her now legendary book Different Loving. Now 10 years later my focus has shifted from Professional Dominance to BDSM educator. I teach classes - going to Minneapolis to do so this week - make BDSM educational/play videos and work with couples in the privacy of my dungeon. I am honored that Dr Brame is inviting me to the board. When I return from Minneapolis where my award winning video "The Pain Game" will screen on Friday , I will check the board. Meanwhile if you wish to know more about my work and my brand new bondage video "Tie Me Up" visit http://www.cleodubois.com
I hope it will help many to explore safely their bondage fantasies.
Fakir is about to teach piercing school and will join this board around May 8th. He has on his site beautiful pictures that are part of his gallery exhibit in LA and his new book Spirit+Flesh.
His website is http://www.bodyplay.com
Happy explorations , Cleo

To: Cleo Dubois (with regards to Fakir)

Welcome 'a-Board' to both of you. :-)

When you have the chance I'd enjoy hearing both of your perspectives on the concept of branding (as a sign of ownership...as body art...as a sadistic activity...etc.) What would you consider to be the most important issues involved? Any insight on advances or tips the masses may not be aware of?

Again...glad you're here.

Be safe,
Thorn

To Cleo Dubious:

Welcome!!!

I am glad to meet you. I am also loaded with questions! What made you decide to become a professional Dome? Did you work with primarily Male or Female Sub-missives? Why did you decide to give it up? Do you ever miss it?

I must admit I have had a private fantasy that I was a professional Dome. Which is weird because I am a sub through and through. I have heard as a professional you don't do sexual stuff. Which would be good as I don't get off sexually to that. I have a mental thing about it. LOL. Doesn't get me wet just would be cool I suppose to put a guy through his passes. Though I know I never would do such a thing in RL. You know how there are certain fantasies that just shouldn't come true. This is one of them.

Do you concentrate primarily on safety issues now,or are you dealing with the whole issue?

It is so wonderful for you to decide to come here and share! I know I have asked a lot but Your background fascinates me.

Fakir:

Hello and welcome to the board to you as well. Were you recently featured on a Cable show on either discovery or Lifetime. (I don't remember which). This guy called himself a pain Shaman and was helping people do Sundances. Are you the same guy.

Being Native American myself I am interested in whether you do hold Sundances. Is this traditionally done. (being only done with males. I have been taught by my family that it is simply not done with females?

I am also interested in finding out if You see BDSM as a having a place in the medicine wheel? If so where do you place it?

Well hope to hear from you soon!

Keeper's Kitty

Cleo and Fakir both keep awfully busy...and there are two special creative projects they have realized in the past year which deserve special attention. I will post another thread about Cleo's amazing documentary film (The Pain Game) soon but am devoting this space to Fakir's new book, SPIRIT + FLESH.

SPIRIT + FLESH is the culmination of a lifetime of Fakir's magickal explorations into the limits of the physical body. The book documents, through intensely stirring and sometimes shocking art photography, Fakir's journey from youthful experimentation with extreme body modification to his extraordinary work in the here and now. Included alongside the stark black and white images of his own physical transformations are numerous images of the friends, followers and loved ones who share and honor his visionary path.

There were quite a number of images in this book which amazed and surprised me. One which made us all gasp here were images of stretched, pierced labia tied in a knot (wow!!). We were equally fascinated by the mind-boggling breast transformations performed by Fakir on himself and others, extreme corsetting, unbelievable piercings and flesh-sculpting through steel devices, and bondage at so intense a level that one immediately understands that Fakir is embarked on a personal voyage that few could conceive, much less undertake.

If you are seeking the ultimate coffee-table book for an adult household, are yourself curious about flesh-as-spiritual-journey, are a devotee of extreme bondage, or simply want to see photos whose power rival the images of Robert Mapplethorpe's controversial SM work, I highly recommend you get your hands on this startling, striking, spectacular collection of photographic art.

You can buy it now at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/189204157X/gloriagbrameA/

Dear Madame DuBois and Mr. Musafar,

i wanted to thank You both very much for Your presentations at Threshold (a branding) and Orange Coast Leather Assembly (Your personal histories) a year or so ago. Both were quite fascinating, particularly Your personal stories.

With regard to the use of "pain rituals" as gateways to ecstatic/spiritual experiences; do either of You feel that SM activities such as flogging, whipping (single-tails), or caning can provide as intense of an experience as the Sundance, Ball Dance or Kavadi?
(and i hope i remembered the name of the last one right.) If not, why?

Thank You both for Your time.

pup nicole b.

Cleo and Fakir,

I'm thrilled to see you here! The admittedly little I have seen of how the two of you do and think about SM has intrigued me. I don't know how to describe this, but what I've read of either of your work has made me go "Hey, that makes sense" in a scene where I often feel like the odd one out because of the way I think about the things I do.

So... I'm thrilled to see you here. Are you going to remain in particular threads like this one, or post throughout the board?

-Trinity
http://www.slavejournal.com/trinity/

Cleo DuBois:

Hello : ) Don't know if you remember me or not, but I booked a session with you a few years ago in September - Folsom week. I was *just* learning how to top my SO, and you taught me some needle play, gave me some flogging tips, let me play with your impressive signal generator - and most importantly, helped me become more confident as a Top and begin exploring the D/s power exchange. You also encouraged me to explore some of the more spiritual side of BDSM.

Well it worked <g>.

We are still going interesting places in BDSM and I credit a lot of my confidence and abilities to your guidance and encouragement.

I'm glad that you and the Fakir are going to participate in our board and am looking forward to seeing where this goes!

Ann

Ma'am,

Since Ms Cleo is away until next week, I thought I'd list this link I found for her video:
"Tie Me Up!"

http://www.cleodubois.com/videos.htm

Folks, just so you know,

Cleo and Fakir are out of town on business right now. They'll be back next week and will answer your questions then.

Glory

Thanks for telling us, Gloria. I was wondering where they had hidden themselves.

A question for Cleo:

How prevalent in the prodom world are notions like "female supremacy"? I don't see it much among people who I know are famous and well-respected (you, Fetish Diva Midori who I was lucky enough to meet at a demo she gave), but I see it all over the place online, for example here:

* http://www.professionalmistress.com/femalesupremacy/mspower.html
* http://www.eroticzone.com/mMoth/
* http://www.femsupreme.com/vesta2/index.html

I haven't seen it among non-pros as much -- no one I know personally feels like that. I sure as heck want nothing to do with it when *I* top -- but I wonder just what's going on with that? Is this a common attitude for pros to have (or pretend to have)? How about for male clients to have?

Second, I have been wondering (an online friend of mine sent this question your way in email too I think) how much being a pro affects the fun you get out of what you do. I used to think that topping for money sounded like the most amazing dream job ("you mean I could get paid to have this much fun?"), but now I don't. From those crude websites I see on the net it seems that the big thing for the men is being humiliated and "insulted" -- and hey, I'm as sadistic as the next vicious beast... but why do something I'm not quite comfortable with when I can get off hearing you scream instead? I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't make a good pro, because I wouldn't easily cater to other folks' fantasies if they bothered me or left me lukewarm.

But am I getting the wrong idea from a few bad websites?

Wow, Trinity, this is a good topic! Perhaps you might consider putting up a thread elsewhere on female doms and female supremacy? Like...*hint hint*...the doms' section? :-)

Wow! New sections, wonderful guests--i get busy for a week or so, and look what happens! <G> Dr Ms Glory, Ma'am, you have done it again--thank you muchly! *s* An appreciative welcome to our guests, Ms Dubois and Mr Musafar, who's careers i have followed enthusiasically for some years now!

rory

Ma'am,

I wanted to let you and everyone know I just got email from Ms DuBois and she is back from her little trip and should be on the boards hopefully tomorrow night (Maybe Friday)

She also mentioned, her video "Tie Me Up"
has a very nice review on Blowfish. I thought I would post the URL here in case anyone would like to hop on over and read it ;)
http://www.blowfish.com on what's new.

Folks, please be patient. As Steel just pointed out, Cleo and Fakir are having some, er, "technical difficulties" rejoining us :-)

Rory and others...I'm SO delighted to have them here. I've followed their work for many years, and everything they've ever put out--BodyPlay magazine, books, now Cleo's video--are of the finest quality. They manage to do even the edgiest, most mind-bending things with great dignity and style.

I've been browsing Fakir's book again (see my review in the other thread in this section) and, really, the photos are astounding. You need to see them for yourselves. Very extreme but OH so beautiful and strange.

Dear Thorn,

Fakir: I am back from a 5 day piercing workshop. Here are my thoughts:

Branding can be something special for all the areas you mentioned. The important thing is to know what you are doing, to have focus, and know your intent.

Cleo says it is a great symbol of consensual ownership. It can also be a sign of commitment to body exploration in a relationship like two of my married friends who both got branded the same symbol after 10 years of marriage to renew their vows to each other. One is the top and the other the bottom.

Trinity,

Cleo here: on the topic on female supremacy and professional websites:

I am not a big web surfer. I have no time. I have been invited on the female supremacy list but it did not hold my interest so I did not reply. My sense is that it is a big fantasy. The real female supremacy for me is about channeling/expressing through your life, Goddess energy/female archetypal energy. In my sadism, I dedicate my work and ask the protection of Kali. As for the expression of dominance by being a bitch and screaming at men, that doesn't work for me either.

As a professional dominant, and now a couples guide in the dungeon, I am aware and respect my boundaries. Professional scenes are also a service. That is why you get paid so it is very important to keep your work clean and true to who you are . At the same time, to help your client explore their fantasy and respect themselves and the dominant.

Dear Keeper's Slave,

Fakir here: I don't know what program you were watching. I have been on many recent programs on the Learning Channel. Like Human Canvas I and Human Canvas II: Sacred Skin. I have done Sundances myself, and conducted Sundances for other people, but not in conjunction with Native Americans. I feel it would be a dishonor to pretend I was doing a Lakota or Ogalala traditional dance. I was inspired to do my Sundances by my own great white spirit. My sundances have brought me to the same great beings in cosmic space that my Native American friends say they have been to. I have never offered the Sundance to women but have conducted similar ceremonies that are Hindu based and do include women. We do these ceremonies very privately each Summer. They are not open to the general public.

Yes, I do believe that BDSM has its place on the medicine wheel. Some of the very first people who found a key to innerspace in this culture, found it through BDSM explorations, and usually found it quite by accident. I got involved with them because they wanted an explanation of what had happened. Their experiences usually paralleled what I had experienced in my own BDSM experiences.

It is all the same thing. It is using the physical body to open doors to other states of consciousness.

Dear Keeper's Kitty,

Cleo here: In my documentary/play video "The Pain Game" I actually answered your question about what lead me to becoming a professional dominant and what brought me know to my work as a BDSM educator and video maker. What I have really learned through many years of playing with male subs, masochists, sams, and fetishists is how lonely and ashamed people are who have no one to share their kink with or who are afraid to come out and be judged as sick or perverted. The reason why I have mainly worked with males is because in this society, women are not programmed to allow themselves to spend discretionary income on erotic pursuits (except for lingerie :) ) The reason why I am shifting more and more toward education through classes and video making is because I wish to empower both new tops, bottoms and switches. I am a switch in my private life (so is Fakir). That allows me more empathy and sensitivity.

I do not miss advertising as a dominant because the standard of professional dominant with that horrible new name "Pro-domme" has really fallen. I very much enjoy playing with these exquisite sincere masochists and bondage enthusiasts who come my way anyway. What I am teaching is not just technique and safety, it is also the tuning in process, the human factor and energy movement involved in play. Seriously, did you see The Pain Game?

Cleo: I just returned from a wonderful trip to the heartland of America. What a pleasure to discover a vibrant and diverse community in Minneapolis, MN. Both the screening of "The Pain Game" video and the classes I presented were enthusiastically attended by kinky folks of all genders and sexual orientations. My work as a SM ritualist resonated with many. It especially moved me that the erotic and yet spiritual flavor of my play style touched those who took the seminars.

I do not see any conflict between consensual sadomasochism and loving or spiritual exploration. What can we do, especially on the internet now, like queer folks have done for themselves and bisexuals like us, to really not come from a place of shame and guilt. Why should we constantly have to defend ourselves from accusation of perversity, being dangerous people and be ashamed of our desires?

PS...we'll be back next week.

>> I do not see any conflict between consensual sadomasochism and loving or spiritual exploration. <<

IMX it tends to be very spiritual in a way -- when things go well (like the scene I did today... damn, and I was worried he'd be tough to reach... *g*) you're reaching into parts of a person that often are very hidden or the doors are closed... opening them is really a voyage -- obviously for the bottom, but also for us tops as well. It's like beingat the helm of a ship... guiding someone into the uncharted places in himself.

It's times like these I'm happy to be a top *big huge happy grin*

Fakir,
      Would it be possible to send you my copy of "Leatherfolk" and have you sign it? The interview you did with Joseph Bean was one of the highlights of the book for me.

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
    With
Poodle Flair

>> The real female supremacy for me is about channelling/expressing through your life, Goddess energy/female archetypal energy. In my sadism, I dedicate my work and ask the protection of Kali. <<
(Note #1: Kali is one of my favorite deities. :)

What if you see yourself as expressing many essences, and the female is only one?

This doesn't seem common among female tops -- many have a "feminine archetype" thing going -- but I don't. I used to, before I started really doing BDSM -- as I did I gradually found that presenting myself as a woman channeling powerful female deities just didn't describe what I was doing. I see some of my energy as male, which just snuck up on me unexpectedly -- I fully expected to be doing goddess-channeling and the like.

But apparenly my inner top had a few ideas of his/her own. :) I can no longer say to myself "Okay, I'm channeling Kali now, and that's all that's going on" -- I found that there is *so much* going on, and half the time I am not sure where it is going to come from or take me.

Nor do I think, any longer, that there is a clearly divided "female energy" or a "male" -- gender and personal energy (which I see as very individual nowadays, rather than archetypal) is far more complex than that, IMO.

Of course, this is all my own opinion.

Hugs and Kisses to Cleo and Fakir!
Love, Barbara Nitke

Belinda is the greatest tech support person I have ever dealt with in my entire life.

Love,
Barb

Ms Dubois,
Welcome back!

Ohh Gloria!! LOOK who I found <pointing up>
It's Barbara Nitke! Welcome to the boards, Ma'am
 ;)

Cleo and Fakir--it is an HONOR to have you here. I'm so happy you have found time to visit with us.

Barbara! Welcome, you early bird :-) Yes, I sure know how to hire 'em, eh? Belinda's the BEST.

Folks, say hi to the wonderful Barbara Nittke, who will be our special guest in June! YAY! I will be putting up a bio and links to tell you all about her in a week or so, but in (very brief), Barbara's a supremely talented SM/fetish photographer out of NYC (she'll have a show in NY in June, in fact!--info soon to come). Also, she has joined forces with the NCSF to challenge the still lingering CDA-related legislation impacting porn on the Net. Barbara is bravely offering her site as a test case.

Yes, folks, we here at gloria-brame work hard to bring you the cream of the SM crop. So to speak ;-)

Glory

hiya Barbara Nitke!

Barbara,

I LOVE what little I have seen of your photography (small samplings around your site and a few galleries' sites). Where can I see more? Please tell me!

Question 2: I know you got interested in photographing the scene -- but are you one of us now? Do you do BDSM? (I'm betting the answer is yes, but haven't heard.) If you do -- what is your scene orientation?

Wow! I don't know what to say!
Well...regarding my work Trinity, I'm having a show in New York (opening July 10th). Hope you can come.
Are you Trinity of Pennsylvania???
My orientation I'm proud to say is voyeur so this message board should be lots of fun!

And Gloria,
Thanks for the wonderful welcome. I'm happy to be here on your message board!
I haven't seen Cleo's Pain Game yet (but hope to soon) but I hear it's wonderful. And I am a very long time fan of Fakir's work both as a photographer and an artist using his own body as a spectacular canvas.
Hope you'll come to New York one day!

Hi Barbara,

Hello. Fakir and I are learning how to be on the board. Something we have never done before. :)
The "Pain Game" screened at the second S/M film festival in NYC October 2001. It was well received and I wish I would have been able to meet you there. It continues showing at alternative film festivals because it clearly shows the energy exchange in S/M play. Both the male and female bottom are real players. The production vlaues was kept high and magic really did happen in my dungeon during the shoot. We were able completely ignore the camera woman, who is also in the scene. It is good to have talented friend to work on such a project. My new video "Tie Me Up" is getting reviews that tell me that once again I have been able to put together a quality and hot video. With these videos, I want to educate and also entertain. And I am gald they are succeeding. For otherfolks reviews of both videos, as well ordering, got to www.cleodubois.com/videos.htm There are two minute clips you can see for free on the site. Hope to meet you soon in person Barbara, and best wishes on your case against the BIG meanie and to keep our freedoms.

Hi, folks, to make it even easier for you to find Cleo's videos, here's the URL hotlinked (just click it and go):

http://www.cleodubois.com/videos.htm

Fakir, I'm so excited to chat with you here :-) You have been one of my heroes, and you continue to amaze and surprise with each new creative project. I consider you a true Artist of SM.

Folks, again, to make it easy for you to get to Fakir's art, just click:

http://bodyplay.com

(also, any lucky adventurers..on the bodyplay site, Fakir has a call out for San Francisco volunteers for piercing demos. Imagine being pierced by Fakir himself!--makes me wish I lived in San Francisco!)

I guarantee it's worth the visit.

Barbara,

No, I am not that Trinity... I am someone else... not even sure who that Trinity is (but curious now).

Hmm... if I make it up to NYC in the summer I would love to see your exhibit.

Cleo,

I'm learning how to do this too. I've never posted on message boards before! Hope to meet you in person soon too. - Barb

Trinity,
If you make it up here this summer my work will be at the Art@Large Gallery at 630 Ninth Avenue after July10th.
Let me know if you're coming! Barb

Welcome Musafar, Cleo and now Barbara.

Other than the message board (perhaps I missed something), will there be an opportunity to chat or q&A with the guests?

Being a switch, I have much to ask Cleo.

Musafar - all I can say is - the things I see fill me with an utter sense of morbid curiosity

Barbara - viewed you site and great pics!

Hi rabidchihauhau! What a name ! I am a switch and I love cats. :-)

If you have some questions about playing on both side of the whip I will come back tomorrow or for sure Thursday. Tomorrow is Fakir's book signing in SF. It is going o be a great community event I bet.
This morning I got a call from a University in Michigan and a request for one of my Pain Game video to be used in a spirituality class, illustrating the connection of ritual and erotic energy. Sounds good to me! I am honored. As for the your interest in switching I always identify as a switch when I give classes or in my videos because I value so much my experiences as a bottom - sassy of course! - I recall the times when being a "switch" was not ok. I often ask in my classes where people stand on that curve and more on more most people admit to switching at least sometimes with someone -not necessarly the one they dominate.
How about you ?

To Barbara,

I certainly hope that we will meet sometimes soon.
Regarding the borad I think I am getting the hang of it. except for the spellchecker. So please everyone forgive me for the typos and orthographic mistakes.
Last night we saw a most disturbing french film - Selection of the the Cannes film festival - It is called The Piano Teacher. It countains theme of isolation, abuse, usane control games, kinky misunderstood desires, repression, cutting... All the dark that comes from not having support in celebrating who we really are. A very sad ending... All she really wanted was to be tied up and sexually dominated... Ah! these french !!! LOL...

Cleo,

thanks for responding.

In other threads on this site I've been discussing the fact that I'm mystified by the negative reaction to switches. I figured that anyone in this lifestyle would be familiar enough with negativity and misunderstanding to embrace everyone else, regardless of stripe.

I'm also beginning to think that my selection of sites to look at on the web may have colored my perception and I would agree that its not as reviled now - at least not in the more enlightened corners - as it used to be.

I have no problem being myself and no problem identifying as a switch; finding the definition for 'what I am' was such a revelation that I can't help but do otherwise, nor would I want to.

I have such a huge number of questions to ask I'm kind of at a loss right now as to where to begin?

I guess my primary question would be: in your experience are most switches 50/50 or do they tend to gravitate more towards one end or the other and occassionaly switch for 'variety' or 'need'?

The second would be: are you aware of many dedicated switch couples? if so, is there a watering hole for them?

Third would be: the dynamic between myself and my partner is basically the following: we routinely switch with a few days off between to re-orient and discuss and a lot of our energy is built on a variation of giving something that had previously been rececived. The period that one of us remains dom and the other sub prior to a switch is not hard and fast but more one of sensing that the need has been fulfilled. Is this a typical arrangement, and, what do others do?

The fourth would be.....see what I mean?

Thanks for responding and don't sweat the 'new to the board' stuff

(I love cats too - and not for eating...)

Hello to everyone...I've been wanting to peruse Ms. Brame's site and was glad to learn that Cleo and Fakir are this month's featured guests. My partner and I are extremely fortunate to be members of their extended family and as such we are able to spend a good deal of our kinky time exploring the many aspects of BDSM, both as top, bottom, and mindful observer.

To Rabidchihauhau....you wrote <<mystified by the negative reaction to switches>> I think most negativity stems from a place of fear. And that fear comes from a lack of knowledge. One of the greatest things that Cleo and Fakir have given to our ever-widening community is fundamental, heart-based knowledge about what we do.

If it's all about energy exchange, making an infinitely connected loop, then it would seem that everyone would want to know as much as possible about most all aspects of what we do. As more people learn how to open the doors to those dark unknown places and air it out, the more accepting they will be to the possibilities on each end of the spectrum, as well as anywhere in between. And, perhaps be more compassionate or at least understanding of what their play partner is experiencing as a top or a bottom.

We all have so many different kinds of energies flowing around inside of us, that, to me, it only makes sense to give them all some loving attention from time to time. As full, whole, happy and fulfilled beings we can and will make a better world.

Hats off to Cleo, Fakir, Barbara, Gloria and all who bring illumination to this wonderful thing we do.

Syn***

Just a quick note to wish Fakir well as he heads off to Modern Times Bookstore tonite for his book signing. Wish we were there. It's an awesome book! These pictures are worth way more than a thousand words, they speak VOLUMES about the journey.

As for Rabidchihuahua, I can only say that my partner and I are both switches and we do the same as you said, we take time between to discuss each journey. We are not 50/50 switches per se, but we do try to give each other top time or bottom time as the need/desire arises. There is no watering hole that I know of yet...but we keep searching.

Of course, we wouldn't even be talking right now if it weren't for Cleo and Fakir. They have been an invaluable help to us in our explorations. I was totally blown away by the ferociousness of "The Pain Game" and "Tie Me Up" is amazing as well. I don't know how Cleo manages to keep the heat on video at the same time she's giving you step by step instructions but she does...The scene with Master Top Jack is a perfect example of the heat two switches can generate. And they did it ON CAMERA! WOW.

Now, C & F, what are you going to do next?????

Syn***
Thank you for sharing the depth of your thoughts regarding the various aspects and energies within each of us. I couldn't agree with you more about how healing it is to recognize and explore these different sides of ourselves and our partners. In my own life, I have not only switched with my primary partner, but also with real players in my community who might have different sexual orientations than myself. I have played with many lesbian-identified women, gay men, and 'boi's (women who play with gender blur). If you have clear agreements with your S.O., it can be such a joy and a challenge to be an ethical slut!!

RabidChihuahua-
I don't think there is a single rule in the world to explain human behavior. I can tell you that I've worked with many men who are dominant with their partner, but are comfortable being submissive at home- as if Bottoming isn't something to be proud of. I really want to challenge that concept. That is why in the negotiation scene on my video "Tie Me Up," Master Jack says "I am mainly a Top, but I sometimes really need to let go." I wanted to share that reality with all those who will use the video for its educational purpose.

Samantha-
Hello to you and your partner. You mentioned the "Spirit + Flesh" book signing Fakir did last night in San Francisco. What a lovely event! We were honored that other BDSM photographic artists attended- Charles Gatewood, Michael Rosen, Eric Kroll- as well as writer Carol Queen, and sex-activist Annie Sprinkle. What a celebration for Fakir's beautiful ritual and photo work! Wish you'd been there, too.

Gloria-
Thanks so much for having us on the Board! Fakir sends his best regards, and might find the time to answer questions if some come up for him tomorrow or the next day

>It has been a couple of weeks since i was able to stop by and post initially and while looking through the message board just now i did not see the post i made. My interest in the combining of my SM practices and my spiritual path (which is in it's own development and seems to be leaning to a Native American path) and therefore, with the hope that the message actually posts this time...i re-submit my original message...with the heartfelt apology if this did go through the first time and was responded to already. Thank you, pupnicole
PS - much of what i have read has been quite interesting...thank you to everyone who has posted so far. Thank you again to Mr. Musafar and Madame DuBois for taking time from their schedules to be with us.<

Dear Madame DuBois and Mr. Musafar,

i wanted to thank You both very much for Your presentations at Threshold (a branding) and Orange Coast Leather Assembly (Your personal histories) a year or so ago. Both were quite fascinating, particularly Your personal stories.

With regard to the use of "pain rituals" as gateways to ecstatic/spiritual experiences; do either of You feel that SM activities such as flogging, whipping (single-tails), or caning can provide *as intense* of an experience as the Sundance, Ball Dance or Kavadi?
(and i hope i remembered the name of the last one right.) If not, why?

Thank You both for Your time.

pup nicole b.

PS#2 - Are there any organizations either of You (or anyone else on the board) know of which are supportive of the SM/spirituality combination in the Southern California area? Or if you know where i might at least begin to look? Thank you.

Cleo,

thanks. I'm sure I'll be picking up your tapes in the relatively near future; so many book, videos and toys to buy...

If you get a chance, I posted several questions for you earlier in this thread.

You had also mentioned that you'd be on board Thursday (today) and I'm looking forward to speaking to you.

Cleo, I want to respond in a way to rabidchihuahua's comment about so many books and videos and toys...Can you really learn that way?

In my case, I had read Different Loving and other books before coming to you, but as good as the books are, the light didn't come on until I was in your dungeon and you were preparing me for the scene with my partner. That was what made the biggest difference to me...

not to say anything against your videos and Fakir's new magnificent book...but...... :-) the magic was in the moment and the space was the dungeon.

Do you give workshops there or just couple sessions?

samantha-w71
I have shifted my focus to working with couples in the last few years. I agree with you that one can learn a lot from books and videos but the energy experience of being guided by a skilled and emphatic Top who is attentive to both the needs of the Dominant and the submissive is a real eye opener. I think that it is so because the energy and the dynamic of the exchange is palpable.
I love to work with couples. Often the woman - in a straight couple - wants to learn to Top her partner to please him... I pay close attention that she gained enjoyment, empowerement and satisfaction for herself. too. Just like everything else it takes two to tango - well sometimes three too. So to answer your question Sam I offer guide play in my dungeon of an average duration of 3 hours. I do a lot of negotiating prior to the play time. I love it so much when the same nervous shy woman who I greet at my door leaves feeling strong and confident and ask me for a big hug!!!

rabidchihuahua

I made a mistake in my previous post to you . Look at number 46 . I meant uncomfortable being submissive, not comfortable. Sorry

Steelskys

Being of a curious nature , I dare ask how many people read these posts?

I hope you are having a lovely evening. Cleo

Steelskys and pupgirl

Fakir answered the questions you asked the same week you posted them I was there. We had our helper type for us - which is not the case right now - and we never saw the post on the board either. He posted from my machine. Fakir does not have a signature for this board. Is there something he should do lor know? Stteskys, we would really appreciate if you write him at Fakir@bodyplay.com
to facilitate him anwseingr some of the questions on the board. Thanks a lot,

Mr/Ms Steelskys:

Is it possible that not all of the posts are coming on to my computer? i have triple checked for Mr. Musafar's response and seen none? Help? Is it there and a pup is just not seeing it? =(

Thank You.

pupnicole

Madamn Dubois,

I am doing great, thank you! :)
I hope you and Fakir are both doing well :)

The boards draw 2500-3000 people per day.
Of course, the majority lurk and then there are those who decide to hang around :)

Madamn, I'm leaving in a few hours, driving to Atlanta, but I will email Fakir later in the day and help him all I can.

When I get to Gloria's I'm looking forward to seeing your books! :)

Madamn and pupgrrl,
A couple of days ago the boards did have a glitch in them.
I know I posted something also and it didn't show as well.
Gloria was contacting master.com about the problem and hopefully that is all taken care of.
I know it's a pain in the butt <g> and I am sorry for the inconvience.

Madam, if Fakir would like his own name to post by, I will be happy to walk him through it.

Belinda

Cleo,

thanks for the clarification (to message 47 - lol); I got the sense of your response anyhow.

samantha_w71

I don't read and view tapes exclusively - nor do I think that anyone could 'learn' this stuff using such a method.

I'm engaged in several tasks right now: catching up on the community I haven't participated in for nearly 20 years, gathering tips, tricks and insite, and checking out the market for one of several possible 'hobby-business' ventures.

Whenever I dive into something, my primary means of "getting up to speed" is reading with the occassional instructional video. I also like building my home reference library.

However, there's no substitute for - as you and Cleo described it - 'the energy' that passes back and forth between two people. Its not possible, IME, to provide written instructions for spanking for example - so much of doing it properly is the immediate feedback you get.

On the other hand, erotica, how tos, and videos such as those by Madam Dubois CAN serve as excellent sources for getting the creative juices flowing and for opening eyes.

Hi, Cleo and pupgrrl...

Actually, if you go back to question #28 in this thread you'll see that some messages from Fakir did come through last week--they are listed under Cleo's account, of course. Pup, I assume those were the ones you typed in for Cleo and Fakir?

The way this software works, you only see one page's worth of messages at a time. But at the top of each page, on the left, you'll see links to previous pages. Keep clicking until you get to question #28. There's a nifty way to do it too: just go to the search box at the top of the page, type keyword "Fakir," select "message boards" from the drop-down menu, and you will get a links list of every message on this Board where Fakir's name is mentioned.

If Fakir would like to post messages in his own name (which would probably spare everyone a lot of confusion), he just needs to subscribe (link above) and join the boards using his own name and email address.

If you need a reminder on how to join, let us know!

*hugs*

Glory

Gloria Brame,

Thnk you somuch for taking the time. I will tell Fakir to check in and register tomorrow. Yes we are both Tops who bottoms.... LOL

I am getting a bondage class/video screening for Wednesday. So I may not be back until the end of the week. Today we got invited to attend Black Rose, present and hold a book signing.... tempting to meet so many other in the Scene.... Do you go to that huge conference?

Hi everyone, Fakir here. Finally ready to chat and/or answer any questions you might have. I understand that my first posting on this board got lost some how. So I am trying again. I'm a busy man these days but will be online tommorow again to continue reading and posting. BTW, Cleo made a mistake on her post. She will be GIVING a class on bondage, not taking one! I had a wonderful crowd at my first San Francisco book signing for Spirit + Flesh last week. Lot's friends, fans and curious book buyers. Several of my photographer friends came and I was honored by their attendance: Eric Kroll, Charles Gatewood and Michael Rosen. Now I look forward to the next book signing events which will be in Santa Fe and Minneapolis. We are also working on some fall trips to Europe. Want a book signing in your area? Just write and I'll see what we can arrange with my publisher Arena Editions. Still coming down from the high I got at the gala opening reception for my first gallery show in Los Angeles. Strictly Hollywood, everything but the searchlights!!'
About 1500 people passed through the gallery in less than three hours. I was pleased that many of my models were able to attend like Kira Veritas, Midori and Stanya Kahn. And it was wonderful to meet so many old and kinky friends like performance artist Ron Athey (who brought german movie star Udo Kier to see my work) and the popular artist Olivia. Now I am preparing for our annual summer gathering in Northern California.
Nine days of outdoor living, relaxation and shamanic body rituals. Life is giving me a full hand of Aces, Kings and Queens. Till next time, my best. Fakir.

Hello fakir and welcome to the boards!! (as you)!
:)

Cleo sez: >> Often the woman - in a straight couple - wants to learn to Top her partner to please him.. <<

Trin sez: I know this is true because I hear it all the time, but it mystifies me every time I hear it. I always knew I was something of a top, even before I knew what the feelings meant. My high school days were spent in a miasma of wondering just why the boys, who everything I read said would love a woman who goes after them for a change, always acted so scared and all weird. :) They were supposed to LIKE girls trying to touch 'em and rough 'em up a little. :-P Puzzled me to no end when they didn't fall at my feet *grin*

I know not everyone is like me... but I always find myself befuddled when I see so few women topping because THEY like it, and rather doing it because their hubby or lover is pestering them non-stop. I always wonder -- how can they see this as a burden? It's the most beautiful thing I've ever known, and coming to accept and understand it, and myself, has made my life better than I ever imagined it could be.

So why are so many women seemingly so reluctant? Is it just that women like me are rare? I try to imagine the other side of the coin -- the submissive-like role "traditional" women adopted, or the passion of female submissives -- and though it is quite beautiful to see anyone follow his or her heart, I just can't see it myself. :)

BTW Cleo... You make me wish I were in your area. Personally I would *love* to get some advice and pointers from a more experienced top, and the things I've read and seen about you suggest that a teaching seesion with you would be a wonderful experience. Unfortunately, though, I can't get to CA easily at all. :-/

Hi Trinity,

Thank you for sharing about you. As a teenager I was heavily programmed to follow the traditional path...(look for Mr Right,... etc...) but inside my good girl manners lived a rebel. And when I let her out ... I was never the same again.LOL. In my working with many couples now what I often encounters is that the would be Dominant Woman is hesitant or afraid of expressing Her power in her intimate relationship only in part by society's conditioning. The main hesitation seems to stem from the man communicating his desires in a way that does center around his fantasies, rather that helping Her find out how She can enjoy holding the power and control. With a little coaching and fine tuning to energy exchange dynamics, most women who consider taking on the Dominant role - at least part time - find that they are more comfortable stepping in their Dominant shoes that they thought they would be.

Fakir and Cleo,

Again, it is a joy to me that you have made the time to visit with us here.

Fakir, congratulations on that successfull book-signing and spectacular gala! Could you give us vicarious thrills by telling us more about the gallery show? I assume you had the photographs hanging on the walls? How large were the hangings? Were there any live performances? Any thoughts of showing your work outside of California? New York, perhaps or even...ATLANTA? :-)

Cleo, where will you be going this year? Do you travel a lot? I still remember how you talked about working in your garden in your Different Loving interview. Often when I think of you, I think of you digging in the soil, making things grows, just as you've helped so many of us in this world grow through the work you and your husband have both done to promote a centered and spiritual celebration of the body.

hugs to you both,

Glory

>> The main hesitation seems to stem from the man communicating his desires in a way that does center around his fantasies, rather that helping Her find out how She can enjoy holding the power and control. <<

That makes sense -- particularly if the man fantasizes about something the woman finds iffy or offensive. Even as an older teen, I was fantasizing about SM -- *I* felt I would have scared *them* if I'd dared to say things like "Um, you're cute... I think I'd like to whip you and stick my fingers up your butt." (not that I knew how to do such things back then... but my fantasies were about them)

Of course, when I actually was trying to get guys, I tried to be much more conventional in revealing how I felt, so my kinky feelings wouldn't frighten them -- but even then, the guys I liked tended to be weirded out by my making it so obvious I liked/wanted them. I was a very clueless kid in terms of getting dates, etc. (Some of that might have been I knew I was kinky, and was unsure what to do if I ever actually *got* a guy because I figured they'd all run screaming into the night if I told them what I was *really* thinking of doing... *g*)

So in some situations, a guy revealing his kinks probably would have struck me as far less weird than it would to someone who'd always thought such things were gross -- though there are, of course, some kinks that do squick me and that might send me running for the hills if that seemed like all the person wanted... so I see what you mean. :)

Hi Glory,

Thank you so much for your kind note. I hope that you are doing very well. Your site is certainly an inspiration.
Fakir promised to visit the board tomorrow to answer your questions. Tomorrow I have a couple guided play 3 hour training -- and also an article to write so here I am up late at the keyboard. The article is for On Our Backs - a woman sexuality magazine very supportive of BDSM explorations. They asked me to contribute my thoughts on how "kink " opened me up to more sexual freedom and connected me to spirituality and expression of Archetypes in my life. I am thrilled. Yes, before I came out as a Player I identified as straight... and did not connect my spirituality to my sexuality. The SM path has been so freeing and empowering.

 I am so glad that my effort as video maker are being appreciated. On Our Backs just gave me a fabulous review today! Made my day when I opened their June/July issue today. .
I find it so wonderful how the women community n and LGBT people are supporting my work.

Plan, plans...well Thunder in the Mountains in Denver in July, a great Conference - Minneapolis for some seminars and perhaps a book signing very beginning of August ( They have a real nice mixed commuinity there ) - Black Rose invited us and especially Fakir as the artist of the year, so we will most likely go - we are waiting for dates. There are also Conference here presented by SmOdyssey for the SF folsom week-end... and I am thinking of traveling more to present my seminars if I can organize little tours that do not keep me away from home too long.

Yes I am also a home person... I have a lovely little yard , roses and jasmine are in bloom ... Finally Fakir and I are getting ready to go on a retreat were with some 30 friends, we play, let our hair down and also lead a big ritual in the fashion of Thaipussam. We are pierced and we dance in the outdoors with the drumming of friends... In these rituals when we dance we are both the Top and the bottom. We push yourself and then the Energy of Love/Life takes you and make you fly...
I hope that you will also enjoy some vacation this summer. Thank you for having us on the board and thanks for SteelSkys for all her help.

Gloria:

I woke up this morning with your question in mind, and realized I didn't tell you about my latest project. Just like for video making, I let things brew in my mind for a long time, and then I go all out with the work.
For several years, many women have been asking me to teach them how to step into their Dominant shoes. Well, I am now in the planning stages of a three-day Intensive for dominant women. I will offer it in the Fall, through my Academy of S/M Arts, and with the help of a couple of trusted friends. I will start out small. Five students in a lovely dungeon space in San Francisco. Anyone interested should e-mail me at Cleo@cleodubois.com or to know about my travel and my classes, sign my guestbook at http://www.cleodubois.com/guestbook.htm
My Boi just arrived, and we are going to work together on my On Our Backs assignment- she types a whole lot faster than I do. Also, the San Francisco Chronicle told me today that they are running an article including Midori, and they also want to know my thoughts about retiring from professional S/M and integrating my knowledge and experience into the educational arena. Great timing, that's exactly where I'm at! Again, thank you for giving us a voice on your board. Many Spring blessings to you, Will, and SteelSkys. I'll send you a whiff of my beautiful roses...
-Cleo

Hi. Fakir here on Wednesday May 29. I was hoping to get some difficult questions from board readers by now. Love to answer tough questions like I often get at my book signings. So folks, you still have several more days to confront me.

However, I did get some questions from Gloria and Skysteel about my recent and future events. Yes, my gallery exhibit in Los Angeles was quite thrilling for me. The Fahey/Klein gallery hung 47 of my original signed and numbered limited edition archival prints. Twelve of them were 16x20 and the rest were 11x14. All of the images in my book, Spirit + Flesh, plus several hundred more are available through Fahey/Klein. To own an original Fakir print, go to a new page on my web site (Fakir Photo Art) for a preview and more info (http://www.bodyplay.com).

I have also just started a new and free online zine on my web site: BODYPLAY ONLINE. Take at look
at the first installment in several weeks. It will be on Branding & Cupping. Also have several more book signings set up: Friday August 2 at PhotoEye in Santa Fe and week of August 5 in Minneapolis. With Cleo, I will be doing some performance art in both these cities. Our joint program/performance/ritual
is about Explorations in Shamanic SM. If you would be interested in a visit to your city, please write to me at fakir@bodyplay.com.

Personally, I am looking forward to a week vacation
before we have more travels. Our private SM group will be gathering in the beautiful woods of Northern California week after next. In total comfort and isolation, we will be enjoying free-spirited sex, play, SM and intense body rituals. On ritual days, Fakir functions as a group shaman and energy moves in delightful and mysterious ways within our group.

All for now. I will be back here tomorrow too.

Fakir Musafar

Thursday 5/30. Fakir here. No questions?

Hello, Fakir.

One question.

Why?

I've read your books and your magazine, and am familiar with your story. Yet still one wonders: why is extreme sensation, sensation at a level that is inconceivable to most people, so fundamental a drive in your life?

And, okay, a second question.

How did you have the courage to pursue this at a time when your fascinations could only, no doubt, be viewed with horror by most of the world?

As a leader and an elder in our Community...what has guided you to fulfill your personal destiny so vividly, so iconoclastically, so spiritually?

hugs,

Glory

Dear Gloria

Great questions for Fakir. Can't wait to read his last post for the month. He is right now working on Body Plasy on line ... as soon as he is done he will visit the board.

Have a great wek end,

Cleo

Hi Gloria and anyone else who might read this. Thanks for the great final questions. Just what I hoped for!

QUESTION 1: What drove you to experience such extreme sensations in your search?
ANSWER: Since my explorations took place over a long period of time, starting in my preteens, they did not start out so extreme. Because I got unexpected and amazing results from the start, I gradually ramped up the physical intensity to get greater and greater results. I discovered what most tribal peoples have always known: physical body rituals are the most accessible doorway to the unseen world. The more I experienced of the unseen, the more I wanted greater access. That has been the fundamental drive of my journey.

QUESTION 2: Where did I get the courage to pursue such wayout explorations when the rest of the world around you might see your behavior with horror?
ANASWER: The insights I got from my early journeys infused me with an understanding that what the world around me thought about such exploration was immaterial, unimportant in light of the wisdom I was receiving. Their acceptance or approval was not necessary in the worlds I was reaching. It was all a matter of viewpoint. Theirs or mine. For me the driving force was not so much courage as a lust to know.

QUESTION 3: What guided you to fulfill your personal destiny so spiritually?
ANSWER: As first it was hit-and-miss. Initiallly there was some guilt and shame. But as these explorations expanded my vision of "what is", I came to understand that I was more than what I thought I was. The larger part of "me" became clear, became an infallible and intimate force to guide me in further journeys. I learned to trust my "higher self" implicitly. Afterall, to me this was my Christos, for all practical purposes God! Who was me, the little "I", to mistrust such a higher wisdom?

Been nice chatting with you. I'll drop back in again next month because I might want to say something nice to my artist friend Barbara Nitke.

Best regards, Fakir Musafar

<< For me the driving force was not so much courage as a lust to know. >>

Ah, Fakir and Cleo, you are truly inspiring. *huggg* It's been wonderful having you here. I know your time is in desperately short supply, and that cyber-chatting is not your forte (yet! *g*), and so I am particularly grateful that you visited with us. I hope you will think of returning sometime, either when your schedules are not so hectic (if that's even a possibility), or when you have new projects and creative directions you'd like us to know about.

Thanks again,

and with love to you both,

Glory