**This week's (amazing) hot topic post is from THAIEN**

----------------
Thaien:

For better or worse I get confided in by all kinds of people, about all kinds of matters, but particularly those of the heart, often whether I want to be confided in or not. (Maybe because I am fundamentally nosey and curious about all sorts of things.)

In the last couple of years several times someone has come to me with their discovery of their needs, BDSM speaking. Their spouse and/or partner does not know of this. They are clandestinely deeply, madly, passionately involved in a BDSM relationship.

They insist this is not adultery because it is BDSM, and they =need= what they have found and for whatever reason are convinced their spouse or partner cannot/will not provide. But they have never spoken to their spouses or partners about it. Or if they have, it's been in such a way that it's the same as not talking about it.

They unilaterally make the decision to plunge into deep emotional involvement with someone else, while witholding this essential information from their partners, which they are morally obligated to provide their partners.

Eventually it all comes out. And the mess is beyond description. And often the spouse who has been kept in the dark is given the job of cleaning it up. Not to mention kids, if there are kids, not to mention the person with whom the cheater was cheating with, etc.

The language used by the cheater to justify and excuse and to then describe the disaster is almost word-for-word the same, including, "I can't live without him or her, but I can't stand to lose my marriage and my kids. It would be so easy if my wife/husband would just accept the person I'm besotted with into the family, and they could if they would but they are too selfish," etc.

The first time I was sympathetic to "our side" of the force. But I no longer am. Lying about something so important to a relationship is pure recipe for disaster for everyone.

What I see is a selfish and emotionally stunted person (who may well have lots of reasons for being so, but still has moral obligations to a whole circle of people) who is determined to do what he wants no matter how much damage is waiting in the wings. Thinking somehow he can manage to keep everything hidden and working for his primary benefit by denying everyone else their right to make informed decisions. Because "I want it this way it will be this way." Magical thinking, so typical of children.

Though there is no doubt that el Cacique and I are in a BDSM relationship, and that I am a submissive and he is a dominant, we personally have many problems with parts of "the community" because we cannot see that our intimate preferences mark us as superior or special. It's just part of the infinite variety that the inhabitants of all species on this planet devise within the context of eros and sexuality for an infinite number of reasons. It's a (personal) lifestyle, not a morality.

That said, this is why those seeking d/s partners outside of the primary relationship w/o informing the other member of that relationship is so confounding.

How can you really build a true and beautiful s&m relationship while lying to a significant other?

Trust, honesty, and communication are the elements of BDSM that draw me the most. I don't have any ethical problem with people who are in open relationships, whether BDSM or not, although I would feel uncomfortable being involved in one. Cheating, including going outside of a marriage for BDSM, is all about dishonesty, lack of communication, and the dissolution of trust.

Sometimes, by living one lie, we can put the rest of our world into harmony. Not an easy decision for anyone, but one I made sometime ago.
WR

You can't. And if people are willing to lie to themselves, then lying to others, including the person who is supposed to be their life partner is not a problem. If you cannot trust the person with whom you have pledged to spend your life with, with your needs AND wants (and these are very separate things) then why are you with that person? I think that if divorce was illegal in this country, if it was truly "till death do us part" then perhaps people would think 36 times before taking the plunge. But that ain't the case, in this country it is a "me" society, its all about the individual, regardless of how those need and wants are met, or who gets hurt. Sad but true.

Justin Medlin
Young Dinosaur
 With Slave
    AND
Poodle Flair

The discovery that the langauge of cheating at love is so similar across time, across continents, across cultures, the terms are the always the same, has become an object of fascination. The particular constant in terms of the language of both justification and besottment, is "That this was destined, for we are the most special of beings; we recognized our souls as the same, and only people who are so special, and so alike, could feel this way."

Lately I've been delving again into the development of the medieval troubador and courtly/romance traditions of the Occitan states -- the Duchy of Aquitaine and the County of Toulouse. There is a great deal of influence, it seems, from the Arabic al-Andulus states and the Spanish kingdoms out of the Arabic traditions, both classical and vernacular.

Whether in the language of Occitan, or in Arabic, or the vernacular Arabic and the Latin-based Romance vernacular of the Arab states called Mozarabic, the language expresses these two ideas -- we are special, thus we are entitled, for no one but two who are so special (and alike) are capable, and thus entitled, to this pleasure.

But what is done then? For that language reflects as well as creates and maintains the bubble of speciality that encloses the lovers from the rest of the world.

Isn't there a strand in the D/S community at large that claims heritage from these medieval Romance cultures?

You lost me in the curve.

Justin

This is one i have had some difficulty wrestling with because it presents a heavy conflict between two principles that i hold dear: honesty and acceptance. The only way i can reconcile them is to realize that not everyone is me, and that although i may find something utterly unacceptable for me personally, i won't presume to say nobody should do it.

i never put myself in that position. i was married once, briefly, and divorced. i've been single since late 1975; i've been a parent since mid-1976. Staying single was a conscious and continuing choice, not happenstance. In all those years, i never found a man i wanted to spend my life with, so i decided never to settle for less. It was often terribly hard and sometimes very lonely; i never had any money or any time, and i put my children's needs first always, which left little time for myself. Again, a conscious choice, and one which i certainly would never expect anyone else to follow. Not everyone is me, not everyone has the same priorities or the same strengths.

i stayed single rather than put myself in a position hurt someone else in the event i ever did find that person i felt i could really live happily with. i couldn't do that; and 25 years of facing the world alone was worth it to me, so i could be available when that person came along.

One of the things which makes BDSM so special is the absolute openness and trust and honesty it entails, in its best sense. If one will and does lie to a spouse, hide things from a spouse, cheat on a spouse, why would anyone expect them to be capable of the honesty and trustworthiness expected in this type of relationship? i'm not saying that as a judgment of anyone, just as my perception of a basic fact. A snake is a snake; an abuser is an abuser; a liar is a liar.

A lesson i have learned is that you *never* know how anyone will behave in extreme situations, until that extreme situation arises. i don't care how well you *think* you know someone. It's presumptuous to make assumptions about how they'll behave, without even giving them the chance. They'll prove you wrong in so many things, and maybe this is one. Trust them; if you can't trust them, you shouldn't be married to them.

As to the marriage/divorce thing, i think the best answer is to require at least a 1 year waiting period and a large sum of money put up as bond, say $20,000, before a marriage can be performed. i think that'd cut down a lot of impulsive or semi-impulsive marriages, leaving those who were most serious to become married, and thus lower the divorce rate. (Credit my mom for that idea, which i heartily endorse.)

For me personally, i could not have a clandestine affair, BDSM or vanilla. For someone else, it's not for me to say; you're the only one who has to live with yourself in the long run.

Peace
firebaby

Dear Weltrazor,
I am not going to pass judgement on you, but I would never be involved in a relationship with someone who was being dishonest. Also, unless you have had your partner tested for HIV and Hepatitis, and know that *they* are monogomous to you, cheating is threatening your spouse's life without his/her consent. I don't know if that is a consideration that you have thought of.

Hello, =)

This is just my opinion and something I feel very strong about...

Thaian I need to express that I "Totally" agree with you on everything you said as well as many other responses. These days marriage is not as sacred as it once was...you might as well pull up to a McDonalds drive up window and order a marriage license. I do not believe in adultery. However I can remember struggling with the thought from time to time. This does not make me a bad person. It did test me though...through my growth I come to realize that adultery no matter what form it comes in is selfish and I am so glad I never did it.

I do not judge anyone for how they live...mostly I try to understand why they do what they do. I still feel things are wrong but never hold it against them in any way. I am not God.

Just to think about such high risk of loosing what I have just because of a fling makes me ill. I can understand the deep desire to feed ones submission or Dominance within BDSM but that person needs to come to grips and try to express to their spouse what their thoughts are and start with something small so they do not put their spouse into shock. There is always time for bigger things if they are accepting of your smallest desires.

If it was not for our openess and honesty within our D/s relationship I can honestly say we would be having severe problems right now. Up until 2 years ago we lived vanilla and we both felt something inside us but never expressed it to eachother. We are so much happier and have grown so much more because we did share and we explore things "Together" as one.

key points
Honesty
Trust
Openess

I do not think divorce should be so easy. I personally think that no matter what... divorce should be banned completely unless there is presence of abuse then I can understand...otherwise I think people should not be allowed. If they put strict rules and enforce them with divorce then maybe people would think twice before they marry.

Children are effected everyday by such things with their family falling apart. Personally I think this is why there are many walking around with so much anger inside and carry so much pain even up until their adult life and beyond. They carry the deep scars forever and it effects them much deeper as they grow, when they are ready to explore a relationship with another they are not right. I could go on lmao but it would take Glorias whole site to express my thoughts lol so I will end it here.

*~dawn~*

What she said. Especially that reference to snakes, abusers and liars. I don't guess we can add weenie whackers, hustlers and con people. The two biggest problem not only in the bdsm community, but the United States as a whole, that I see are the absolute lack of any type or morals (no I don't mean the religous right wing version.) We act as if this "problem" exists only here in what we view as our little world, but its not, its part of our society at large.

Justin Medlim
In Search Of
 Bridgette
The New Beanie
Baby Poodle

One more thing....Abuse to me is physical...mental...and adultry...just to give you a broad spectrum of my idea of abuse.

*~dawn~*

Here ya go, Justin! ;-)

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1179568656

<< NEW Brigitte the pink poodle >>

Omg! LOL

Gloria,
       you so good to me lol. And she is already even collared lol

Justin

But...(trying desperately to get this back on topic)...is she an adulteress poodle? ;-)

Folks, I've been reading your comments here in total fascination. For one, I am surprised to see how many of you feel so strongly about this, and also how many agree that adultery is wrong. I would have expected a lot of different points of view. But I also notice there has been fairly light input from men in this thread. (ok, poodle-man, you count, LOL)

I wonder...is monogamy perhaps a hotter button for women? Thaien, is El Cacique's attitude the same as yours on this issue?

Someone mentioned that if a person lies to his/her spouse, you can be s/he will lie to a D&S partner too. Do others agree with this? Is it a given than someone who goes outside his or her primary relationship will be dishonest/deceptive with a partner? I know it is COMMON--but it is a foregone conclusion?

Personally, I don't think I have a monogamous bone in my body, and I never have. Most of my life there has been more than one man I was interested in and sometimes 3 or 4. Will was explicitly informed of same when we got married and though he had always seen himself as a one-woman-kinda-man until then, he began to take on my more pleasure-loving attitudes towards life (and love and SM). Poly is our solution to the urge to wander. It means we never have to lie about anything and that feels REALLLLLLLY good.

Still, Will is hubby #3, and I know what it's like to feel trapped in an unhappy marriage, and how emotionally empty a person can become. And while it's easy to say "then leave!" most adults have lots invested in marriages, including property and children, and relatives and friends to face, and the fear of change and upheaval, and uncertainty about the future.
It takes a lot of courage to walk away. Many people don't have that much courage. Don't they deserve our sympathy anyway?

For me, this issue is complex and very morally sticky. I think truth is the path to enlightenment and the foundation of true intimacy. But I feel for people who are frightened of living in truth. I feel sorry for them not just because of the negative things they may do to others, but the joys they miss out on themselves. Know what I mean?

Glory

"Someone mentioned that if a person lies to his/her spouse, you can be s/he will lie to a D&S partner too. Do others agree with this? Is it a given than someone who goes outside his or her primary relationship will be dishonest/deceptive with a partner?"
I tend to think that there is a high likelihood, though not a foregone conclusion, that a relationship founded upon a lie to one's spouse will lead to other lies. There's a big difference between an open relationship/polyamory and cheating. I don't have an ethical problem with people who go outside their primary relationship *if* they are being honest with their spouse/significant other. I understand that this is a gray area, and these folks *do* have my sympathy. I guess that I feel that they should at least attempt to find a compromise that they and their spouse can live with, rather than dismissing their spouse as "not understanding" out of hand.
I am not saying that cheaters are blanketly bad people. I simply feel that a relationship that is founded upon withholding information, and deceit doesn't lend itself to developing communication and honesty.

Gloria,
       You and Will are upfront and honest.....and you knew going in. You did not buy into one thing to find out you had been sold another. I feel for the people who don't live in truth either...and there is no absolutes. But does that make right less right and wrong less wrong?

Justin

I was just reading this thread tonite, and either Im in a mood, (glancin at sub,"watch out babygirl" <eg>) or somehow I see this all different. Just a few quick points here:
 

In reply to (9 xtwilightsaurax ) I agree with her (it is HER right?) that marriage is not as sacred as it once was. I also wonder if she knows how lucky she is that when their 'vanilla' relationship discoverd BDSM, that both of them were interested. Trust me when I say, it is more likely to be called sick and twisted when you try to explain your feelings about this. I speak not only from experience, but from talking to others who have had that same thing happen.

So, YES, she has something good right now (^5 to her and I hope she always will have <smile>) and that makes the thought of adultery repugnant. But, the other side of the coin, when you cant honestly see anything good left in the relationship, no matter how hard you try, then suddenly, going somewhere else for emotional fulfillment seems very much more attractive. Nevermind the physical part...which can actually be ok, and you still crave the emotional part a great deal.

The key word I think on that thought, " IF they are accepting of your smallest desires". But, what if they arent? how would she feel now if her spouse had laughed at her when she brought up even a tiny thing?

Secondly, I agree that divorce may be too easy to obtain. But Im curious as to the exact definition of 'abuse'. Physical? emotional? Ive had both, and frankly, I prefer the physical, because those marks heal.

Are our children affected more by mom n Dad divorcing, or by hearing the fighting day after day, night after night? And once a relationship is going sour, it becomes very difficult to NOT do that. As one who has lived it as a parent, as well as having talked to numerous people who have lived it as children, everything I can see points to it being easier for the kids to adjust to one parent not being there. That includes my own kids opinions as well.

Umm, next reply... memneth, you say TWO biggest problems, but only mention one. LOL (ok ok, Im nitpicking) and, gee, since when has whacking the weenie been so bad? <eg>

For what its worth, the communication Ive found in a Dom/sub relationship is so far superiour to anything I experienced in over a decade of 'vanilla' marriage. And that includes more sleepless nights than I can count, sitting and desperately trying to explain my feelings and understand hers, to someone who could, or would, only see their own viewpoint.

Lastly, Gloria, I wish I had said what you said, very well put. : ) It is difficult to walk away. It is difficult to stay. I wonder at times, which takes more courage?
Back to the original thought tho, I agree that total honesty is the ONLY way to make a relationship work. Anything else will simply erode slowly away until there is nothing left.
 Unfortuneatly,however, I guess I lost my delusion that all is black and white with no shades of gray in between. Especially when judging others. Jaded and cynical? Hmmmm

'Knyfe

Gloria,

I need to express my thoughts about what you shared. (smiling sweetly) I commend you on your openess with those who have been involved in your life. You see I feel if a person is up front and honest from the start about their preference on the way they live...then that is really giving the other an open book as to what they are entering into. This give that person the choice to accept this or not. I also agree one million percent with people who fear living in the truth.

I think what is the point to life if you have to constantly hide in the shadows and not be the "real you" I see too much of that these days.

I do have one question to add to this that does confuse me though. It is my thoughts on adultery. Here is my thought. Say for instance you have a couple who is married and they decide to add another person to the relationship...would this be considered adultery? On biblical terms that is. I am a bit torn between this subject and thought about it and the more I think the more confused I become.

memneth you make me laugh...Beanie baby and poodle and all lmao.

*~dawn~*

This topic touches home a GREAT deal for me. So I'll try and give a little bit from my view....

Note: me saying "YOU" in any of this is not me pointing out any particular person. <G>

Before i begin i want to say.. i don't think someone in their early 20's or younger has even a clue about marriage.. and personally i think being married that young CAN..not is or always.. but can be a mistake for many. Heck, most haven't lived or seen just how many different ways there are to living life..a happy one... by then. If your lucky enough to have picked the right partner at a young age, then congratulations to you. You either got lucky or you knew from the get go what was needed in a marriage to make it work.

That being said...

I am married and have been for 12 years. I think my marriage started failing before it had a good chance to begin. The reason i say this is because i didn't know when i got married what it was i've been missing in my life. Which turned out (10 years later) to be my submissiveness. IF i had an idea about my submission before i got married, there's no doubt in my mind that i would not have married my husband. I told my husband i almost feel i deceived him when we got married. Because i changed from what he knew me as. I, unlike some of the people Thaien spoke of, HAVE discussed BDSM with my spouse. This became one of the deepest conversations that my husband and i have had since being married. i poured my heart out, held NOTHING back. For the first time in 12 years i thought.. maybe... just maybe we CAN communicate...until...i heard his laughter that came from things i told him. I will never... NEVER forget that. He never understood why i was so upset by his laughter. Before and after that night, i've begged and pleaded with him several times to talk to me.. to communicate his feelings with me, to let me know his wants, needs, expectations.. not just about BDSM but our relationship in general. He wont..he says he "cant".. that that's just not how he is. That he cant express his feelings openly. Being Dominant is not what my husband is and is not anything he can be and REALLY be Dominant if he tried. Sure he can "pretend" to be Dominant.. but him pretending only for ME defeats my whole submissiveness right? Of course there are/were other problems within our relationship but communication and my discovery of my submission are the two things that will end up breaking up our marriage.

I can see where people who are lucky enough to be able to bring D/s into their life with their spouse can't understand the need to find fulfillment elsewhere... but can you also imagine NOT being able to have that with your spouse? Try it.. but be careful. you may see pain unlike you've ever known.

Do i feel i'm special because of this tremendous need i've discovered? Heck no. Not by any means. Do i feel my marriage has come to an end? Sadly..yes. I'm sure some are saying "then just leave, THEN seek".. I haven't left as of yet, because of different circumstances. My Dom provides me with bright parts of my day which wouldn't be there if he wasn't. But does having those bright parts of my day make me a bad person? I'm not saying i'm right by continuing to see my Dominant while i'm married, but i've looked at what my life would be like if my Dom wasn't in it. Things here would still remain. No communication on my husbands part and unfulfilled in my submission on my part. Leading to one road...a lonely, distant one. Neither person being happy... content maybe but not truly happy. Is this selfish? Maybe.. but then i also know that no matter what i do, how hard i try.. that my husband will never be happy with me either. And that's what i want for both of us. So we grew apart at sometime. So when i was younger i "Thought" this was the man for me. A wise man once told me, <eyeing 'Knyfe> The truth is... people change. I completely agree...Sometimes the change is for the better, sometimes for the worse.. sometimes together with who they picked as a life partner and sometimes not. And if not together..that doesn't make the Jones' any better then the house next door.

I think it takes special people to be able to live in a D/s type relationship.. but i also believe that these traits (Dominant or submissive) is something you ARE. Something that some discover they are early in life and some much later..but i don't believe its something you become. Yes, i feel you can learn more.. become more knowledgeable and grow. I think that everyone has some type of dominant/submissive side to them.. but i believe the hard core Dominant/submissive sides are who a person is. What i mean by hard core is that you understand your Dominant/submissive side and learn how to use it.. thus living a D/s lifestyle.

My Dom has provided me with more pleasure, anyone can find physical pleasure.. but more emotional pleasure in 3 years then i've known in my life. He has brought out things in me that even i didn't know about myself. He was doing this even before the BDSM stuff ever entered our lives. Looking back, He is what saved me from some of the dark thoughts of "is this how my life is going to end?"...

Gloria.. you said..
<< Someone mentioned that if a person lies to his/her spouse, you can be s/he will lie to a D&S partner too. Do others agree with this? Is it a given than someone who goes outside his or her primary relationship will be dishonest/deceptive with a partner? I know it is COMMON--but it is a foregone conclusion? >>

I for one do not agree with it. I cant even put into words how much i don't agree with this. If someone can sit there and tell me that they do not and have not told a lie at some point to their Dom or sub.. i'm ducking, because i know that lightening is gonna strike. So some see what they say as a fib and not a lie. Come on.. whats the difference?
To lie means: To create a false or misleading impression.
A fib means: A trivial or childish lie.
So a lie.. is a lie.. is a lie....no matter how big or how "trivial" It could be something even as how your day went to save someone from needless worry or something way deeper. One is gonna keep you out of trouble or not shed such a gray light on you as well as the next right? (Do i see some faces turning red?...LOL) I'm not trying to pass judgment here, i'm just saying others shouldn't either. Once my needs have been met WHY would i have a need to fill a void with someone new? If you have that communication and that openness then there's no need to "lie" about relationship issues.

One last thought...and this mainly applies to non-abusive relationships but to relationships where they just fail for one reason or another....
Its no ones fault... no one can be at "fault" for growth... or growing up. So what if my growth is different from my spouse.
Fault is a weakness..or imperfection. Growth is progressive development. One is a negative.. the other a positive. And guess what??...its OK to grow.

Anyway.. I may have gone way off line here. The original post was mainly about (i think) people who haven't discussed wants, needs, desires with their spouse. That i've done.. notice the shades of blue in my face?...

~Chris

Btw.. Thank you Gloria for the last statement....<<For me, this issue is complex and very morally sticky. I think truth is the path to enlightenment and the foundation of true intimacy. But I feel for people who are frightened of living in truth. I feel sorry for them not just because of the negative things they may do to others, but the joys they miss out on themselves. Know what I mean?>>... it brought a warm feeling to my heart. <G>

Actually, i made a point of using the word "clandestine" in my description of the type of outside-marriage relationship i have a problem with. It's not the sex or the relationship with another person that bothers me, it's the unilateral decision to do so, and to not tell the spouse you're doing it. It's the lying, the deceit, the utter self-centeredness that goes against my grain.

Personally, i've always felt that monogamy was a man-made construct to ensure (as well as possible) the lineage of any children of a union. It had to be devised and strictly enforced *because* it's not human nature, in my opinion.

For all sorts of reasons, i personally believe that a person who will lie will lie, yes.

Peace
firebaby

I have been avoiding commenting on this as it hits a bit too close to home on several levels.

First off, I will deal with the easy one. Gloria, you asked if it was an absolute about cheating on spouses meant dishonesty. Absolutes and human behavior seldom go together so I am sure there are 4 or five people in the world who are completely honest about their cheating behavior. However, none of the ones I have known were completely honest with their BDSM partners. And since I have contact with so many people through my involvement in various roles I get a lot of tears dropped on my shoulder because of this.

Now here I have to start on the hard parts. My pet is married and was cheating on her husband when I met her. It didn’t bother me much at first until I began to see he wasn’t an asshole (something that I could use to rationalize/justify being involved with her) but was actually a good father to her son and a decent guy. Before I came to any moral impasse however, he decided to read her journal. Violating a major tenant of healthy poly relationships, she told him I was a fixture in her life, he could accept it or leave. To make a long story short, in order to spend more time with her, I got a job 1.5 hours away from my home and I now live with her family 2/3 of the time.

Unfortunately, sometimes distance is a good thing. I have begun to see that she paints a slightly different picture of each relationship to her husband and to me. I have only recently realized this and have not yet determined if that is because she is softening the blow to each of our egos (which is nice) or if she is telling two stories (which is fucked)!

Bottom line, anyone who can cheat on their spouse, puts their needs above all else. Are these the kind of people we want in BDSM?

Michael

I have been monogamous to only one man in my life...my X husband and I was miserable in that marriage. I have never been able to be exclusive to one man, ever, except for him and I got out of that relationship before I did go outside of my marriage.

Our sex life sucked and while I realize that's not the end all and be all of a relationship, I learned from that experience that it is very important to me and can not be overlooked. If I'm not compatibile with someone in that area, its going to be difficult to live that way...for the rest of my life.

Having proclaimed my inablility to be monogamous in most situations, I do have to admit that some of the difficulty for me with having a poly relationship is that I get jealous, even though I think it would be the best solution for me. I feel envious and get fearful that the other person will leave me by finding someone they connect with on a deeper level than what they have with me. (always a risk regardless, I know)

However, I also know that I usually don't feel jealous, envious and insecure if I know I'm the primary relationship and/or that I am loved. Its the whole abandonment, low self-esteem thing I have going (which is annoying as hell to be dealing with at my age, you'd think I'd be past all that shit by now). I know I can do this because I do have sexual relationships that I am not the primary person in their life, but I know that I am loved and have not had those moments of insecurity and fear.

I have to comment some on the lying to your partner topic that relates to this theme. There are many reasons that people wander outside of a marriage (and lie about it) and its usually not so black or white. I think that most people try to be as honest and forthwright as they can be or have the capacity to be, when they are dealing with their SO.

Our needs, wants and outlook on life change over time and sometimes our partners don't change with us and visa versa. Then you find yourself in the position of either having to leave or deal with the situation within the confines of the relationship and sometimes we don't make the best choices.

I'm not condoning adultery by any means because I think if it gets to the point that you know you can't be faithful and thats the kind of relationship you have set up...its time to leave. Yet, as I stated above, sometimes things aren't so black and white and we're all just trying to do the best we can with what we have.

Fix8ed

Dear xtwilightsaurax,
"You see I feel if a person is up front and honest from the start about their preference on the way they live...then that is really giving the other an open book as to what they are entering into. This give that person the choice to accept this or not."
I told my sweetie about my BDSM inclinations, and other things that he needed to know in order to make a choice about whether or not to date me, before our first official date. We'd known each other for 8 months, and had become gradually closer for a month before that point. I recognise that not everyone gets to know their partner so well before they begin dating, but honesty and communication are very important to us.

"I think what is the point to life if you have to constantly hide in the shadows and not be the "real you" I see too much of that these days."
To quote a bumpersticker I once saw, "I would rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not."

"Say for instance you have a couple who is married and they decide to add another person to the relationship...would this be considered adultery? On biblical terms that is. I am a bit torn between this subject and thought about it and the more I think the more confused I become."
King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 porcupines - err - concubines. ;) Polygamy was certainly allowed in the Old Testament. I've heard from some people that Jesus did change it to being allowable in the New Testament. In my opinion, it is one of those things that is a matter of interpretation. Search your heart, pray, and you will know what path to take.

Dear ckim25,
"IF i had an idea about my submission before i got married, there's no doubt in my mind that i would not have married my husband. I told my husband i almost feel i deceived him when we got married. Because i changed from what he knew me as."
I think that there is a big difference between changing after marriage, discussing the changes, and not being able to come to a compromise, compared to getting into a marriage which one knows will not meet ones needs. It is not deceitful to change.

"I think it takes special people to be able to live in a D/s type relationship.. but i also believe that these traits (Dominant or submissive) is something you ARE. Something that some discover they are early in life and some much later..but i don't believe its something you become. Yes, i feel you can learn more.. become more knowledgeable and grow. I think that everyone has some type of dominant/submissive side to them.. but i believe the hard core Dominant/submissive sides are who a person is. What i mean by hard core is that you understand your Dominant/submissive side and learn how to use it.. thus living a D/s lifestyle."
I was introduced to BDSM by my ex-boyfriend, who was a totally novice submissive. We were together for almost 5 years. Much of that time we spent in a lifestyle 24/7 power exchange, although not TPE. I was totally unaware of BDSM before that time. It took a while before I was able to do overt play without feeling silly and embarassed. So, I think that you are mistaken in this regard.

CKim,

I would like to thankyou for your insight. It really made me think about some things that I had once forgotten. I am always open to new light.I wish for you nothing but happiness =)

*~dawn~*

We all make our own decisions, and justify them in our own ways. My self image demands that i be able to look anyone in the eyes and tell them the truth about anything. i have swallowed much pride and faced much hardship so i could look back *always* and say i faced squarely everything i ever did. That strong need in me has caused me to learn to never make a decision i'll be ashamed to confess. It's also gone a long way toward teaching me a lesson i sorely need - humility - because nobody is good enough to *always* make decisions that won't embarrass them in the future. But it doesn't stop me from trying.

i have never believed that life should be easy or always comfortable. If you make wrong choices you, in my opinion, have two choices: change them, or learn to live with them. You can't eat your cake and still have it too. But again, that's just me. i don't expect anyone else in the world (except possibly my children, who needless to say have a lot expected of them in that respect) to live by my standards. But i do live by them, and always have, and i pray i'll always have the strength to do so. When i have to resort to becoming a person i don't like or don't respect, it'll be time for me to die.

For 20 years i had absolutely no idea what it was my relationships were missing; i was involved with several very good men whom i loved, but who were missing something essential that i needed. Even though i had no idea what it was, i still knew its absence, and waited. i didn't look for "the one right soul-mate," because i'm more pragmatic than that, and that notion is too fanciful for my taste. But when i did find the lifestyle and did figure out what i'd been looking for (without knowing it), i was available. And if i hadn't been, i'd have taken my own advice (which, by the way, i have taken in other situations) and either lived with the decision i'd made (to stay married to my husband, and to abide by the agreement we were married under), or to change the situation (that is, to leave). Neither is easy, but then again, LIFE ISN'T EASY!!

Peace
firebaby

YES! You GO firebaby!!! :)

Justin Medlin
YDWPF!

Justin wrote, "weenie whackers, hustlers and con people"

Hey, I protest! I love to whack weenies -- don't throw us weenie whackers together with hustlers and con people!

(sung with enthusiasm to the tune of "I'd love to be an Oscar Meyer wiener")

Oh I'm proud to be a dommy weenie whacker!
That is what I truly need to beeeee...
'Cuz when I am a dommy weenie whacker,
Those weenies just adore and obey me!

Deb
Impentinent Weenie Whacker

DEB!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!

I want some of whatever you are smoking!! :-)

Oh gosh, Gloria -- I'd love to pass some over to you but would you believe this is only the effect of my natural DNA?

As my mom once told me, a little of me goes a long way :-)

(this time I get to *flutter* my eyelashes ( *_* )

Ha!

Deb

"Still, Will is hubby #3, and I know what it's like to feel trapped in an unhappy marriage, and how emotionally empty a person can become. And while it's easy to say "then leave!" most adults have lots invested in marriages, including property and children, and relatives and friends to face, and the fear of change and upheaval, and uncertainty about the future.
It takes a lot of courage to walk away."

I've been thinking about this over the course of the last couple of days, and I'm going to relate a hypothetical scenario to try to explain my problem with cheating rather than leaving.

Lets say that a man and his wife were high school sweethearts, and got married immediately after graduation. After 15 years and 3 kids, he discovers BDSM. After a couple of years, he finally gets enough courage to tell his wife what he wants. He is a bit overeager, and she blushes and giggles nervously. Distraught at her reaction, he doesn't bring it up again, and tries to put it out of his mind. A couple more years go by, and he decides that he simply *must* engage in BDSM. He still loves his wife, and doesn't want to disrupt their children's lives. So, he finds someone on the Internet, and they gradually get closer and closer. They get tested for HIV and Hepatitis, and always use condoms. He's trying to be careful, after all. Two years go by, and his wife goes in for her pap smear a couple of months late. Her gynecologist tells her that she has stage 3 dysplasia. A biopsy proves that it was caused by HPV (Human Papilloma Virus). Suspicious, she gets a private detective, while undergoing laser to try to get rid of the dysplasia. The detective brings back photo evidence that not only is her husband cheating, but that he's tying up and whipping the other woman. She files for divorce, seeking sole custody of the kids, except for the oldest who has just gone to college. Just before the court date, she finds out that the dysplasia has recurred, and that she has developed vulvar cancer. Armed with the medical and photographic evidence, she is granted sole custody, and her ex-husband is only allowed supervised visitation, because he's a "bad influence." His oldest kid calls to tell him that she hates him for what he has done to her mother.
The wife would not have cancer if it weren't for her husbands actions. She did not know about or consent to the affair.
I can feel sorry for him, but, his wife is really the wronged party in this situation. My sympathies lie more with her.

Dear Opalescent Dreams...

What i meant by my comment... <<"I think it takes special people to be able to live in a D/s type relationship.. but i also believe that these traits (Dominant or submissive) is something you ARE. Something that some discover they are early in life and some much later..but i don't believe its something you become. Yes, i feel you can learn more.. become more knowledgeable and grow. I think that everyone has some type of dominant/submissive side to them.. but i believe the hard core Dominant/submissive sides are who a person is. What i mean by hard core is that you understand your Dominant/submissive side and learn how to use it.. thus living a D/s lifestyle." >>.....

is that i feel (MY opinion) the tendencies to be Dominant or submissive are there before you may even have a clue of what they are. Who knows, maybe born with them. I myself had no clue about submission and why i felt the need to constantly do things for my spouse...things that maybe you don't normally see in a 'vanilla' type relationship. So my submissive tendencies where there. When i read and studied about BDSM i realized that ive actually been this way all my life. I just didn't know what it was or what to do with these feelings. I'm not saying i'm right or wrong...

Before i make the next comment, please know it is in no way meant to offend anyone. It's just easier sometimes for some to connect something as being the way someone IS when they view it from a lifestyle they maybe more aware of. Make sense?.... anyway (half ducking)...
one way that i've expressed my feelings on this to my husband was, what if i had a feeling for women as long as i can remember and i just never knew what or why i had these feelings. Then suddenly woke up one day and realized i was a lesbian. Could he do anything to satisfy me?.. would i ever be happy living in a heterosexual relationship if i was? He can no longer meet not only my physical needs but my emotional needs because its something he's not. Some may argue with me on this one... and thats ok too. <g> It did make some sense to him. LOL
It seems to me when i put it this way to some they seem to understand what i mean. i dont think i could ever be happy or fulfilled NOT being submissive... BECAUSE its who i am.

To xtwilightsaurax...
Thank you for your well wishes and a different view on such a touchy subject. I've always heard and said myself, there's no RIGHT way to be in this lifestyle. You have to find what works for you. I reckon that goes for life in general though. <g>

Deb, LOL Great... now im singin the weenie whacker..errr ummm oscar myer song. not that ive ever WACKED a weenie..sounds painful the way you put it..hehehe Too funny!

~Chris

Basically, what it all boils down to is that we all have to live with the decisions we make, and with the consequences of those decisions. This is true whether we make those decisions impulsively or after much deliberation. The hallmark of an adult, as i learned to recognize one when i was growing up, is that he can think ahead, see possible outcomes, and make informed decisions, being fully aware that he *will* have to live with the consequences.

So the bottom line is that each of us does what we feel is best for us. If we're wise, in my opinion, that will include considering the consequences of our actions before we act. Since each of us has different approaches to life and different things we can live with, we'll make different decisions. But the fact that 100 other people would do the same thing isn't a valid reason for doing it, if you aren't willing to accept whatever consequences come along.

i hope that made sense.

Peace
firebaby

Dear ckim,
"The tendencies to be Dominant or submissive are there before you may even have a clue of what they are."

I do think that the tendency is there, but that some people may have a harder time coming to a realisation of those tendencies.
"When i read and studied about BDSM i realized that ive actually been this way all my life. I just didn't know what it was or what to do with these feelings. I'm not saying i'm right or wrong..."

I'm not a dominant person in general, but kids and critters have always done as I ask most of the time. Even before I became aware of BDSM, I always knew (and let my partners know) that I needed to be in control of what is done to me. However, I have changed, and become more aware of dominance/submissive issues since I came to find out about BDSM. I think that it's a combination of innate characteristics, and growth.

"what if i had a feeling for women as long as i can remember and i just never knew what or why i had these feelings. Then suddenly woke up one day and realized i was a lesbian. Could he do anything to satisfy me?.. would i ever be happy living in a heterosexual relationship if i was? He can no longer meet not only my physical needs but my emotional needs because its something he's not."
No flames from me here. I do understand what you mean. I hope that you can find a solution that works for you and your loved ones. I'm glad that you have been honest with your husband about your needs.

Gloria -- I apologize for replying so late. I've virtuously remained offline while attempting to meet the deadline from hell, while also having family visitors.

Does El Cacique agree with my assessment of adultery? Yes.

But perhaps to clarify what is our own definition here -- adultery is lying, deceiving, being dishonest. It is adultery if one half of a partnership does not wish to have the relationship open to other sorts of events or experiences, and the other partner goes ahead anyway, without saying s/he is doing so.

As you can see, for us, personally, that can leave a lot of room for other people to participate in your life. As long as all invovled are informed and all involved are consenting.

As firebaby posted:

"Actually, i made a point of using the word "clandestine" in my description of the type of outside-marriage relationship i have a problem with. It's not the sex or the relationship with another person that bothers me, it's the unilateral decision to do so, and to not tell the spouse you're doing it. It's the lying, the deceit, the utter self-centeredness that goes against my grain. "

El Cacique and I have discussed this issue deeply, and this is the consensus we have come to, through our own and others' experiences.

It's a unilateral decision to deceive, in our opinion, that creates the situation 'we' and much of the world labels adultery.

My further interest in this comes out of the language of deception and cheating, as I posted earlier last week, how the vocabulary of cheating/adultery remains the same across time and cultures.

As well, does the vocabulary of the one who was the partner in cheating/adultery remain the same when the bubble bursts, the rocket crashes, the bomb explodes. First, it is the specialness of we two, we are not the common run-of-the-mill cheating couple, devolving to, "I'm just another stoopid woman/man who fell in love with a married man/woman, stoopid like millions before, presently and in the future. And here I am, sitting alone, (cutting up my collar?), crying and hating myself."

It's the lying. It matters not whether vanilla or bdsm. Lying creates a mess.

This isn't to say that you can't cut a deal sometimes, maybe even unspoken, with your partner, that you are free to do what you choose as long as you are 100% discreet and keep the partner from having to see. But, it's funny, how often that unspoken agreement turns out to have been made only on one side, and the other one never knew they had this deal, which is also usually a big shock to the triangular partner.

Ah well. IOW, it really seems to be best all around, that no matter what sorts of relationships people choose for themselves, honesty remains the foundation for any of them to really work.

Thaien