We're so used to feeling the contempt of non-kinky people for our so-called immoral practices, that I thought for the hot topic this week I would put the stiletto on the other foot and take a look at the kind of relationship advice dished out to mainstream Americans and how it compares with the values that BDSMers hold dear.

For an example: "Redbook" magazine is running a piece advising married women on the "nine things you should never tell a man." This is the typical filler of all women's magazines; taken at face value, I'm sure plenty of readers would agree with the writer. Obviously the editors and publisher agreed or the piece never would have shown up.

But my goodness: looking over the nine no-no's, it's obvious that what the writer is advising, and what Redbook endorses is LYING. Yep. The secret of success in a marriage, the article implies, is deception. Here are some of their rules, followed by my BDSM POV.

Redbook: "Never tell him that his best friend made a pass at you."

I'm trying to imagine how I'd feel if my submissive didn't tell me that someone purporting to be my "best" friend was secretly trying to steal him from me.

Redbook: "Never confess to past infidelities."

To me, total honesty is the foundation of a BDSM relationship. If my sub was cheating on me, or had cheated on me, it would be a BIG issue. (Cheating is different from a consensual poly situation!) What's really appalling to me is that this article basically tells you that you can violate your vanilla marriage vows at will--isn't saying "don't tell him because it will upset him" like giving someone permission to commit adultery at will? Are these the family values that mainstream media are pushing now?

Redbook: "Don't say he's not as hard as he used to be."

This one made me laugh. So what's a woman to do: lie there and resign herself to rubber-dick for the rest of her life? Get him VIAGRA, fer chrissake! Jeez! What's the point of sexual intimacy if you can't be sexually truthful, and deal gracefully with whatever sexual challenges arise (or decline *eg*) in the relationship? I realize femsubs may be quivering at the mere thought of suggesting to Master that he take a little blue pill--but I bet there are not many Masters out there who want to be deceived about their ability to satisfy a femsub! I like to think we BDSMers care about each others' sexual health and do everything we can to ensure that our intimacy is THRILLING--whatever that may take. Beyond that, how many SMers are going to stay on in a relationship that doesn't sexually satisfy them? (Maybe I don't want to know....*g*)

From my femdom perspective, it seems like most of the things on this wholesome list are urging women to lie, cheat, conceal facts, and be hypocrites. Instead of encouraging them to be the best they can be, it tells them to get what they want through manipulation.

So I ask you...aren't the values we hold high in BDSM (total honesty, openness, disclosure, nakedness, and trust) a whole lot higher and more spiritual than the pap spewed by vanilla relationship experts?

How do you see it? What are your moral values, when it comes to SM relationships? Are things like honesty and truthfulness as important as hanging on to someone through the kind of trickery advocated by Redbook? Or are we just as bad as them--giving lip-service to those values but not practicing them any more than our non-kinky counterparts?

Read "9 things you should never tell a man" for yourself
http://redbook.women.com/rb/marriage/features/51tell11.htm

You just illustrated what I have been thinking and saying for awhile now. Our society as a whole does not hold morals dear as it did in the past....it is a "me: society, not just a generation. Honesty, Trust, Respect are no longer the hallmarks of the familys and society that they use to be. While we as a community do still give lip service to these ideals, I do not think that the numbers of people who hold them true and try to shape their S/M, BDMS, D/S, B/D, ABC, DEF or EFG lives is much higher than that of nilla's as a whole. There are plenty of people who proclami their domliness or subliness who are only interested in the same things as the people who read the Redbook article and take it to heart are; they want what they want and don't care about how it may effect others, including their partners, just so long as it doesn't effect them. Perhaps there are more "moral" people in the scene than in society in general, but they certainly don't attract the attention, but they probably are not on alt.com either....they have usually found their partner because they have taken the time to not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. Everyone wanst someone else who is honest, that shows that they are worthy of trust and thus their respect, but fewer are willing to do what it takes which is live that way. It takes too long. How many dicks did you say you saw on alt.com? Now all those people that are showing their true colors like that, as well as those that respond.....they are all good people with the highest moral fiber I am sure :)

Justin Medlin

AMEN! I totally agree with you Gloria. It really pisses me off really bad to think about so many of these issues within vanilla relationship. I am actually thrilled I have experienced so much on both sides of the fence with this. I can so many times compare our vanilla marriage to our D/s and see so much wrong that took place.

I do believe that a D/s relationship surpasses a vanilla one also I would like to add I do see older...much older people in vanilla who do apply the D/s aspect of the relationship (without realizing it) but without the kink and ummmm maybe that's why you see them married for 40 years or more.

Oh ya I think it's good to keep secrets and lie and be selfish and self centered. I think it's real healthy to put everyone in front of your mate. I think it is really good to not care about your mates feelings or the things they need or desire. I think it's healthy not to share fantasies with your mate so you go looking for someone who will fullfill them. I think it is real healthy to focus on money instead of love. ummmm hello vanilla world this is not what it's all about!

Maybe this is why marriages don't last becasue of all the bad things I listed above. Sorry if I come of pissed as all hell but that is becasue I am. I am sick and tired of people trying to cram it down my throat what a woman is suppose to be and promoting that your mate should be treated like garbage and not take reguard to his feelings or be honest about anything. You see it in books, magazines, Tv...it is everywhere. I am sick of how women look at me because I get up to do something out of the "norm" (in the vanilla world) for my mate while we are out but "Hello" while you are not looking..your vanilla husband of which I even took notice to has a little grin on his face as he will look at my mate.

I enjoy the dinamics of D/s...all the honesty and openess and the giving just to see his smile on his face warms my soul. There is so much more I feel but I will not go into it.

This article puts the icing on the cake and I can see them now reading it...while they are sitting around in their circle giggling at work talking about it.

I also agree with the part you say Gloria ...Are we just as bad as them...giving lip service to those values but not practicing them any more then our non kinky counterparts.

I do find and found many in the lifestyle who will preach but not practice what they preach. However I would have to say that I really think those who don't practice are the ones who truely do not understand the dynamics of the relationship and they need patience and time and understanding on both sides. It is much to difficult to reprogram your thoughts and ideas and beliefs overnight.

Thanks for the topic I think it will hit home for many.

*~Dawn~*

Well, well...this is an interesting topic.
I do not know about what other people do within their BDSM relationships but I do know that 'I' have been forced to look at my honesty and trust issues, moral and ethical issues, more so within the context of a BDSM relationship than I ever did with a vanilla relationship. Which says a great deal to me about the kind of vanilla relationships I have had in the past(don't want to go back there thats for sure).

Everyone seems so afraid of having the other person 'get the upper hand' that people become guarded, wary and deceptive in their dealings with each other. They lie, manipulate and deceive each other to get their needs and wants met, and this article seems to be feeding into that whole misconception.

People seem so afraid that there will not be 'enough' to go around...the scarcity factor as a friend of mine calls it...enough love, attention, affirmation and devotion to go around so we manipulate to get what we want instead of just asking (rejection...keeps us from asking and from giving).

I think its impossible to be 'completely' open and honest with another indivdiual as there are just too many factors to consider when interacting with another individual....such as how much growth you or they have undertaken in your life, taking into consideration another persons feelings, thoughts and ideals (without undermining their ability to actually handle the honesty)...not being blatantly hurtful, your past, their past etc etc. But we should try to the best of our ability, other wise you have shallow, empty, fearful relationships.

Are BDSM relationships more 'moral'? Perhaps, it depends on the people involved. I think that BDSMers are probably more in touch with the moral and ethical implications if they are NOT honest and open with each other than people in vanilla relationships. Although some still really don't give a damn. But you do find that in all walks of life.

You have to be able to be honest with yourself first, about what you want, what you need and who you are before you can be honest and open with other people and sadly, many people can't or won't do that.

I looked over the list that Redbook noted and it seems to me that the kind of man they are gearing their list towards for these women, is definitely NOT the kind of man I would chose to have in my life. If they are unaware or having issues dealing with the fact that they have 'gotton soft', hate their mother, make more money than they do, then you've got some big problems on your hand.

Although it seems to me that if they are going to feed women that crap they should of been more thorough and added a few to the list...like...'never tell your current lover how many sex partners you've had in the past' and 'never tell them you really don't like it when they do that thing with their tongue' (but wait, I like most anything done with a tongue so I guess that one doesn't really apply *eg*).

I can think of many others but I've rambled on enough and did my soap box bit...

fix8ed

Wow, what a question.

Ms Gloria said:

<<Redbook: "Never confess to past infidelities."

To me, total honesty is the foundation of a BDSM relationship. If my sub was cheating on me, or had cheated on me, it would be a BIG issue.>>

Umm.. scuse me Ma'am, but you didn't read the whole article did you Ma'am?

Redbook: "never admit that you cheated while in a committed relationship."

ie. past relationship. Not the current one. Would you really want to know if your sub had once cheated on his vanilla wife when they were both desperatly unhappy? What about if only he were desperately unhappy? Eeep, it pains me to say it, but I actually agree with her on this one, (but the theory behind it gets a big "hell NO") even though IMO the bulk of the article is full of double-standards and pish-posh.

<<What are your moral values, when it comes to SM relationships? >>

Ah... now let me preface this answer by saying that I grew up in a weird household. Really weird. Individuality was valued, difference were celebrated. Different was not wrong, just different. People were valued for who they were, and were never belittled for what they thought. Intense discussion was encouraged, mistakes were seen as learning opportunities. During my childhood the setup of the family went from Dad being the only breadwinner to Mum taking on that role. Then they both worked, then Dad worked part time, and Mum did full time artish stuff, etc etc. Roles were fluid, people did what they wanted to do, and each person was valued for their contribution. And thats just the way the world is right? Mutual respect and acceptance is the hallmark of adult relationships right?

Yeah, right. Took me ages to get my head on straight that not everyone thought like that. Took me longer to SP21x1 that more did that you would suspect at first glance. I think the world has always been full of both moral and immoral people. Just that crappy people are more visible than wonderful people.

So, what are my SM moral values? The same as my vanilla ones. Compassion, acceptance, respect, honesty. Maybe I am a little more rigid in requiring great dollops of all of them in the people I want to get SM serious about, especially honesty, (Somebodies going to get their balls busted over a little non-consensual hard drive browsing.) but generally the standards are the same.

Kink v Vanilla - who gets the morality prize?

Well, actually, in the kink family D/s people are most moral, leather is not far behind, but PVC and scat fetishists are shocking, worse than 90210 vanilla types. <laughing>.

Seriously now - although I too use the term 'vanilla' for convenience, it still SP18x1 squicks me. Vanilla is a long way from being a homogeneous group - as far away as kinksters are. That being said, I feel it likely that anyone who has seriously looked at a lifestyle in which your safety / satisfaction is highly dependant on another person(s) integrity, has done a little introspection regarding their own standards of honesty and integrity.

Are BDSMers more Moral than Vanillas? Maybe a tad. But in general I would hazard a guess that we are no more moral than non-BDSMers who have had to take a good hard look at who and what they are.

Jules

The world as a whole, and North America in particular, seems to be driven with the concept of image. Our values have become like the background on a Hollywood movie set -- hollow shells and facades that represent one thing or the next, but lack any of the substance or structure of the real McCoy. What is it they say in advertising, you sell the sizzle, not the steak? You live and die by your teasers and sound bites? Our world seems to have adopted that ideal because it isn't just a vanilla thing ... you find evidence of it everywhere, among vanillas, kinkies, homos, hets, everyone. It's so refreshing to meet people that don't put up fronts and just be who they really are, and that's a sad observation when you consider we should all be like that.

Jules,

**Would you really want to know if your sub had once cheated on his vanilla wife when they were both desperatly unhappy? What about if only he were desperately unhappy? **

Yes, I would, actually. Do you find that odd?

I always prefer to know the truth about people and their lives. Lies are pointless. They don't advance anything except, perhaps, dementia.

I think a dominant not only has the right to demand full disclosure from a sub, but actually needs to know the details (however sordid) of a partner's past history. Being able and willing to listen to another person's truths, and to accept that person for who he/she is, flaws and all, is the hallmark of any kind of mature relationship--gay, straight, kinky, alien, whatever.

A husband who goes into a jealous snit because his wife cheated on her ex-husband sounds immature and weak to me. A wife who conceals stuff about her past sounds like someone who'd conceal plenty of other things too. A mature approach would be to learn as much as you can about your partner and to create a better future based on the wisdom you've gained. They could work together to avoid the pitfalls of the past, too.

Also, if someone did have negative patterns of behavior, or a history of crazy impulses---isn't that sort of an IMPORTANT thing for any committed partner to know about?

In a loving SM relationship, I'd say it's crucial.

For me, it's that aspect of full disclosure and honesty that makes SM so appealing. I've always hated people who played games, or tried to control me by pretending to be things they were not. In retrospect, that's how I see the world of conventional so-called "normal" relationships. I see tons of utterly pointless game-playing, idiotic "rules" for dating and marriage, and gobs of relationship experts doling out the most appalling advice imaginable. (Dr. Laura comes to mind, of course, but so does Dr. Drew!)

I'm not saying SMers are perfect. But I do think that if anyone in our Community advocated that subs lie or conceal things from their Master or Mistress, most of us would be pretty ANNOYED. Whereas some of Redbook's readers are probably going to follow that reporter's awful advice, trusting that this is all acceptable moral adult behavior.

xx,

Glory

we live lives of absolutes.
that has to be a real, tangible thing, for there to be any exchange of power.
with these two as fact, we see open horizons of opportunity.
lives without walls or inhibitions are hard to control by the consumer-motivated society.

so the vanilla world becomes uncomfortable - even afraid of us.

ideologically, are we "better" than them?

yes.

in practice, are we?

all i can speak of with surety is my home - because i am so removed from the real world.

the absolutes here have never been broken.

and it shouldn't be surprising to us that the real world advocates the craven, the sly and deceitful:

it absolves them of everything - and when diseases of the mind consume them, they make easy addicts of anti-psychotics (sponsored in part by the government).

the dilemma comes when the question then arises: what must we then do, in good conscience?

Glory.......

Thank you ..... Thank you ....... Thank you again.

i have sort of raised this topic before and here it is again. As i have said before, when i entered this lifestyle ...... began to read about what the philosophy of BDSM was ........ intellectually as well as emotionally i knew that i had come home.

I am not saying that this journey to home has not and is still not quite difficult ... because it is. One of the greatest difficulties for me is exactly what you are referring to in the Redbook articles.

sounds a bit strange i know ....... but the truth. The longer i am in this lifestyle the more honest i am able to be ..... both with myself and with others. How strange that what i really learned at an early age way the art of deception and dishonesty. i learned that people do not want the truth ... that is unless your truth agrees with theirs ...... nor do most people know how to react to honesty.

As Craig said

"""The world as a whole, and North America in particular, seems to be driven with the concept of image. Our values have become like the background on a Hollywood movie set -- hollow shells and facades that represent one thing or the next, but lack any of the substance or structure of the real McCoy. What is it they say in advertising, you sell the sizzle, not the steak?"""

It seems almost as though we are in an "anything goes" period ..... but without the acceptance that
being true to oneself" and the "honesty and truth" are essential ingredients for any solid ... worthwhile ... loving and lasting relationship" are the foundation for a life that holds value and worth.

One of the most difficult things for me has been accepting that honesty .... in viewing myself and others .... in communication ..... in image ..... in living .... is respected as well as accepted.

In my vanilla life ...... it was more the norm then not to access what the rules were (in whatever game was being played at the time) .... decide if you wanted or needed to play that game to get what you desired .... determine which values or morales you would have to compromise ...... and then join the game.

Image and perception have taken the front seat to all else in most cases. It is not who or what you are that is of interest to others ..... it is who and what you are perceived to be that has the impact.

If the true you "rocks the boat" you had better believe that acceptance will not be forthcoming. There are white lies .... there are lies "to protect someone's feelings" .... there are lies to "keep from accepting the consequences of ones choices" .... there are lies to "maintain the status quo" ...... there are lies "to manipulate others" .... there are lies "to impress" ..... there are lies "to be accepted" ..... there are lies "to get love"

You can not trust the law .... the government .... the media ..... corporate America .... religion .... education ..... or even reality. Gone are the days of truth until proven dishonest .... and in it's place is dishonest until proven to be truthful.

More and more we are told to lie ..... to be dishonest, and as a result we live lives that are more a lie then they are the truth. More and more we find that confusion reigns as we try and balance who we MUST be to survive against who we really are.

That i reached the point in my life where i had no idea who i was is now not all that surprising to me. Of course i had no idea ... because i was guided to the conclusion that i must "adapt to the rules" if i wanted to be a part of the world.

i know that this lifestyle is not perfect when it comes to morality ...... but i must say that there seem to be many more who are in this lifestyle who not only respect and embrace the concept of honesty ..... but who also respect and accept that honesty is not something that is negotiated ..... it is encouraged and expected.

What i see happening because of articles like the Redbook one ..... is a reinforcement of the idea that lying and dishonesty is "where it is at" and that to be anything else is not as it is supposed to be.

Should we be surprised that so many lie .... i think not.

i can deal with the truth ..... simply because it is the truth. i do not have to try and figure out what was really said ..... i do not have to rely on past experiences to know the intent ..... i do not have to get out my dictionary to know the "real" meaning. i can take the words at face value .... i can ask a question if a bit confused .... and know that there will be "no games being played" to win me over.

i feel that i can finally find me because i can be me.

Storm

Craig,
      I really want to meet you sometime face to face...I have been told all my life that I am an only child...but damn, it amazes me how you manage to pull the thoughts outa my head and express them WAAYYY better than I do.
Gloria,
       Bingo! yet again. It seems that a lot of people who focus on what it is that we do physicaly, be it sessions or sex do not seem to make the connection that what we do also directly effects the emotional and spiritual parts of us as well. Least thats what I got out of this last post.....yes honesty....and brutal honesty are not only needed but often required between partners in S&M, be they live in full time partners or simple session partners. S&M, while one of the best experiences that can be had by both, is not something to fuck around with. Honesty breeds trust, trust breeds respect and the three combined together make S&M (in my POV) the beautiful powerful thing that it is.

Justin

Glory,
   In our last hot topic, I was not sure if it was just a Man/Woman thing...now I am not sure if this is just a BDSM/Vanilla thing. I just think it is a "Today" thing. The fact that the book, "The Rules:Time tested secrets on capturing the heart of Mr. Right" was such a big seller a couple years back is a illustration of this. What the hell kind of barbie dream life ring chasing crap was this?? It was more like a guide on how to find Mr Whoever so you can collect alimony in 2 years.
  I being the curious soul, wanting to find out what all the fuss was about, thumbed through it in the bookstore, and quickly replaced it on the shelf.
  A wacko woman at my work, however, swore by it. Notice I said "swore". She got a proposal after a second date, accepted, and was married by a judge like the next week. Now she complains of how he treats her like she was stupid, doesn't listen to her, blames her for all his woes, is too fat, never has sex with her, has no personality, blah blah blah. Mind you, her husband is pretty much the same as when she married him....add 60 pounds to his 5'5" already 300 lb. frame, she just never got to know him.
   So, what did these rules say??? Oh, many things to the effect of, don't return phone calls, no sex till you get a ring, no dates after Wednesday, never offer to pay for anything, basically saying that a woman should be chased, appear aloof and disinterested, independant and mysterious. Both the authors are currently divorced. I hope their ex husbands get alimony from them.
  There are just so many women, who grew up with that Barbie image of life out there, that a woman has to have a Ken or she is not complete. What a load of bunk. God forbid a woman not be married by 35, her ovaries might fall out, she might not be viewed as a woman without a ring on her finger.
  What a surprise that my co-woker's favorite magazines are Vogue and Redbook, etc. Don't want to read anything that requires too much thinking. Well, her life, The "rules", and this article in Redbook are perfect illustrations to me on how NOT to have a relationship.
  I think the nature of BDSM, the inherant risks in it require a lot more trust than the average relationship. But I feel any relationship needs to be based on honesty. It cannot be based on manipulation, lies, half truths if it is going to last and be non abusive. Both people involved are whole people, enough without a ring, enough without a collar. Any person who puts a condition on their happiness, i.e. "I will be happy when I am married, when I have children, when I get this job", are setting themselved up for failure. They don't have it in them to be happy at all. If someone cannot be happy alone, then no relationship can make them that way. I suppose though that misery loves company, and the company that misery gets is other misery.
   The total answer to your question Glory, I don't know. I enjoy the fact that BDSM requires more trust, it takes more out of me, requires me to give...and even take more. It is a challenge. It requires me to be that whole person. I know, however, that if my current relationship regretfully comes to an end, that I will grow from what I have learned. I will be fine on my own, and when and if I do find a new Master and or Mistress, that I will have something to give to them, and they will have something to give to me. I will give them my committment and honesty, willingness to please and serve, because I have that to give. Not because I am just like everyone else. I am thankful for my weirdness. ;)
  diana

BTW,
  It just occurred to me that the women who follow these articles are the ones attracted to the ads that those fellows place in the personals you spoke of in our last hot topic. Ahh the shallowness of the pool of humanity. Please check the depth before diving, or else your spine is sure in danger of a breaking!!

Justin .......

"Honesty breeds trust, trust breeds respect and the three combined together make S&M (in my POV) the beautiful powerful thing that it is."

Meaning no disrespect Justin .... but it is the addition of the fourth that places D/D ... D/s ..... or S/M so far above anything that can be possible to imagine. That fourth is LOVE ..... and imho .... the glue that makes all the others come together and stand taller then the three could ever be alone or that love could be on it's own.

If i may take a moment to share something with this group ..... i would like very much to do so.

As i have said in past posts i am in the process of making my divorce final. For many reasons ... and one that is anyone is interested i can elaborate on at a later time ...... i am still living under the same roof as my husband .... stayed away from a lot of conversations about this lifestyle due to the power that it would give to him ...... the constant put downs that i would have to endure in addition to those that i have allowed .... his view that i am just a "sicko" .... his belief that BDSM is abuse and that his treatment of me during our marriage is but his right and duty ...... and finally the frustration of talking to a wall.

My husband is one of those who touts honesty as a trait that he possesses but at the same time has a belief that almost every word that i utter is a lie .... totally off base .... me oriented .... selfish and self serving, not to mention a cop out.

Yes i have lied to him ..... many times ... and something that i have beaten myself up for far more then he could even begin to do. Why ?????? because he thinks my values and ideas are misplaced ..... that the things that i have wanted to do and experience are a waste of both time and money ..... that my way of thinking and seeing the world is both wrong and totally irrational .... but above all he feels that if i would just do as i was told life would be grand.

i tried just that for years ..... and what i got in return was criticism ..... humiliation ..... disregard for any and all thoughts, dreams and aspirations that i might have had. More then that though, i was told on a daily basis that "i could never get anything right" .... that " i sexually i was like a frigid piece of fish" .... that "i was lazy, selfish, self centered, and that "i did not know how to think right."

During my entire marriage i was never told that i was loved .... appreciated ..... or accepted. i DO remember all of the times that i would go to him and ask if there was anything that he like about me ....... and stand in silence waiting for his answer ..... and enduring the silence as long as i could before i left resolving that i would have to work harder and one day he would be able to find something to say when i asked that question.

In many respects i behaved as a child would ... in that i KNEW when i was going to get in trouble because i wanted to buy something for the girls ..... go to a concert ..... go on a mini vacation to the ocean with the girls ..... invite friends over .... have a birthday party for the girls .... go an visit my brother ..... and on and on. Knowing that i would be punished in some way ...... be it be by .... getting yelled at and my needs totally discounted ...... being the topic of discussion among his friends and family so that i could be publicly humiliated for my disobedience ..... have something that was of great value taken from me or destroyed as punishment .... i would lie so that i received the punishment only once and not twice ... before and after.

Finding a place where the people not only thought highly of the value of HONESTY ..... RESPECT ..... TRUST .... but also lived and had the expectation that those values and their importance would be as necessary as food, water and air in order to live has allowed me to again believe and act on those values regardless of the consequences.

For whatever reason ... be it fear of being totally abandon ..... fear that i really was a crazy and immoral person ..... fear that i really was all of those things that he said about me ..... or fear that going out on my own would only prove him right .... it has taken me 33 years ..... disdain of who and what i am by those closest to me .... and serious consideration that the only option i had remaining to me was to leave this world ..... i finally made the decision to being the journey to finding me.

i have advanced to being able to be honest and truthful with him no matter what the resulting consequences or reactions may be, they have not changed .... i have. Though i still beat myself up for many things ..... lying and being dishonest with him and others as to "me" is no longer an option for me.

The more honest i am with all that is "me" ... the more i am able to see "me" ...... the better i am able to handle and accept that i am different and that is OK.

The road has been almost impossible at times .... and not all in this lifestyle live that word HONESTY .... but enough of the ones that i hold in high regard do and therefore the environment for HONESTY is present ... accepting .... and encouraging. All of the learned behaviors and values... though difficult to recognize and even more difficult to change .... are slowly being displaced by who i am .... how i feel and think ..... how i want to live MY life ..... values and morals that i have always felt were the cornerstone and foundation to my happiness ... peace and acceptance of me.

i graduated to a higher level last night when again i was confronted with my interest and involvement in this lifestyle. A weight was lifted from me when i could stand before John and say that although i afforded him the acceptance and respect of who he was and the values that he held ..... i was also who i was. i no longer wanted to play the game of trying to please him .... invest the time and effort in explaining this lifestyle or my needs ..... allow myself to be abused ..... or tremble in fear of being punished.

i told him that his game playing about the divorce ... the financial settlement ..... and my worth as an individual, female, wife, mother, friend or whatever could not longer keep me paralyzed and unable to act on what i needed for my happiness and completeness. i could and would no longer lie to myself about my reality .... my needs .... my essence. i wanted and needed more and he still could not and would not see that and so there was nothing to work on ... hope for ... or try and salvage from out years together.

i told him that his threats of humiliation ... exposure .... mud slinging ... financial destruction could not touch me any longer. That i had finally taken it upon myself to retain a lawyer .... admit that our separation agreement was not worth the paper that it was written on as he had no intention of honoring any of it ...... and move on. It could be as ugly or as civil as he chose it to be .... but that it WOULD BE.

What the expected reaction .... was the actual reaction ..... but the usual affect was not there. Yes i felt the past emotions well up ... the confusion and the insecurities begin to overcome me .... the fear of not seeing things as i should engage in a battle with the "true ME" ........ but this time who i am was stronger then all that i had been taught.

This lifestyle and the values that are held up and accounted for gave me the strength ..... the courage .... and the encouragement and support to take one more step forward.

Thank you all

Storm

Are kinky people more moral than vanillas? It depends on the people. But what really got me thinking was Craigs' comments about how this culture seems to encourage lying and deceit in our relationships (which it does), but the real question is, when did it become that way? Of course we have gone a long way from the days of courtly love (which i believe us good S&Mers try to emulate), but it would seem that honestly and openess in relationships should have survived though all of these societial upheavals. Obviously, this was not the case. i wonder if our modern, "we can get everything we want when we want" society is at least partly responsible. i mean, if you want to get married and devorced in the same day, you can. Why work out your problems yourselves when you can pay people to do it for you? One blue pill can fix all your bedroom problems forever. Surely when more and more people begin to believe this philosophy, the foundation of what makes a good relationship changes. So if progress has a lot to do with our current relationship problems, it makes you wonder if the throwback christian right has something going with their "return to the old days" crap.

A disturbing thought indeed.

Dear Jules,
You said, "Would you really want to know if your sub had once cheated on his vanilla wife when they were both desperatly unhappy? What about if only he were desperately unhappy? Eeep, it pains me to say it, but I actually agree with her on this one, (but the theory behind it gets a big "hell NO") even though IMO the bulk of the article is full of double-standards and pish-posh."
I would also want to know if my submissive had ever cheated on anybody. I would want to know his reasons for doing so, and how he plans to avoid that temptation in the future. I would at least expect him to tell me if I asked him straight out, and would respect him much more if he volunteered the information.
I'm curious why you would think that any dominant would not want to know his/her submissive's history, or would wish for the sub to be dishonest.
There's no double-standard involved. If I had ever cheated in a committed relationship, I would owe it to my future parters to be forthright about it, whether they were my submissives or vanilla partners.
To me, honor is the most important thing in a partner.
I don't think that I would able to even be friends with a habitual cheater. Someone in an open relationship, sure. However, lying and sneaking are extremely unattractive.

Dear Nytefog,
As we used to say at Rocky Horror Picture Show, "F* The Rules!"
I scanned through the first chapter, and it was so disgusting it almost made me throw up.
I don't think that it's specifically a vanilla thing, and there are probably many people in the BDSM community who are just as dishonest in their relationships.
I think that you are right about vapid, manipulative women seeking shallow, passive agressive men, to play out their quasi-power exchanges.

Dear Storm,
I am so glad that you are getting out of that situation. Noone should have to live in fear. Lying as a coping mechanism to avoid violence is completely understandable, even though it isn't "right." I truly wish you all my best as you embark on this new path.

No, IMO, *we* are no more moral than vanillas. Perhaps *we* have a higher concentration of morality than *they* do, but there are still immoral people in the lifestyle. Just as there are folks with very high morals outside of the lifestyle.

i think that morality has more to do with peoples background (how they are treated in *all* relationships - families, freinds, work, etc), than their sexual practices (or fantasies!).

Anyway, just my thoughts....

sub2silk

O. Dreams,
    I LOVE ROCKY HORROR!! I used to be in a local cast of it..before I knew for sure I was kinky...lol, that should have been a big hint. But, as I was growing up, my favorite shows were Batman, Wonder Woman, and the Addams Family. If I couldn't realize it after that, well....at least I know it now!! =]

{{{{{Storm}}}}
    I wish you luck in your situation, hang in there.

Dear Nytefog,
Rocky Rules! ;)
Oh, this brings up a minor peeve that I have with a friend of mine. He has a habit of dating Rocky cast members, then wanting them to dress and behave modestly?! It just seems so weird.

Storm,
       Congratulations. You may have lost a lot of the battles through the years, but you won the war. That's a hell of an accomplishment, and I am proud of you. Be proud of yourself.

Justin

sub2silk

""""No, IMO, *we* are no more moral than vanillas. Perhaps *we* have a higher
 concentration of morality than *they* do, but there are still immoral people in the
 lifestyle. """"

ummmm i see what you are writing but i am afraid that i still do not agree. Or maybe it just needs to be stated differently.

i agree that there are both moral and immoral people in both lifestyles ...... what i do not see in both lifestyles is what i find here on this board. This Board has STANDARDS and high expectations of those who post here. Honesty ...... respect ...... consideration are non negotiable expectations of our Moderator. Openness is desired but with the understanding that a level of trust must first be developed by those of us post here. Lying will not be tolerated .... but omitting something will ..... if and only if the intent was not to deceive but rather the omission was due to "needing time to be able to share."

The morals of honesty ...... respect ..... and trust are more visible in this lifestyle due to the continuing discussions that are forever taking place as the Novice seeking to understand the the language .... climate ... and people who make up this versatile group.

For sure there are those who lie ..... manipulate ..... abuse ..... show disrespect among us ...... but you will not find that type of individual being held in high esteem by the masses in this lifestyle. You do however find this type of individual held up as a Hero by the media ..... a "go -getter" in much of corporate America ... and who really knows what by the rest. This person's status plays an important part in how the rest of society views these individuals.

An individual who would intentionally lie in their posts here ....... if found out ..... there would be no doubt that this behavior was NOT acceptable and that it would not be tolerated.

Perhaps what it really is that i see is that ...... like most other things ..... there are groups that do and groups that do not ...... and because this community that i have come to identify with has such high standards ...... standards that i have missed ...... standards that had to be constantly compromised for my survival ...... i view this lifestyle differently.

Though this group of consistent posters is small ....... there is a greater percentage of honest ..... respectful .... and truthful individuals here then any other group that i have associated with ...... be it work .... be it social ..... be it in education ..... be it in the legal system or even the government.

In a court of law ....... "Do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" ..... and then just listen ......... amazing.

Is it due to the experiences that i have had throughout my life that taint my view ..... perhaps so .... for i will openly admit that my exposure to lies and dishonesty did begin at a very early age.
But the fact still remains that there has been nothing until this lifestyle that could bring me back to believing that honesty ..... truthfulness ....... and a respect for those values actually has meaning.

i guess it all depends on where you are coming from ...... and what you have experienced.

Storm

Sub,

I agree. There are PLENTY of really awful people in the Scene. There are lots of liars, and con artists, some abusers, and even some outright thieves. That is a basic fact of life, as true within our subculture as it is true of any other segment of society. Yucky people permeate every group. (Yucky is, of course, the clinical term *g*)

What got me thinking, though, was how really insipid and even immoral advice has become the soup du jour of the mainstream advice columns/books. Redbook is by no means the sole offender--open any issue of Cosmo, Vogue, etc., or walk past the "self-help" shelves of any bookstore--and you'll find lots of the same kind of advice, urging people to manipulate and cheat their way through love & relationships.

Maybe we just haven't been around long enough *as* a subculture, but it seems to me that, at least in words if not in practice, people who write for SMers, are still stressing so-called traditional values. I've yet to see anyone advocate concealing details of one's past or lying about genuine emotions or needs. I imagine that if anyone did start advising subs to behave dishonestly, he or she would be publicly reviled. Or at least, I hope so!

And, indeed, I think this is one of the attractions of the Scene for people who, perhaps, might not otherwise have been intensely drawn by the SM sex alone. I've heard it again and again that there's something refreshing and liberating about the ideals espoused by SMers in terms of honor, integrity, and honesty.

Are a lot of people spewing the terms while privately being hypocrites? Sure. But what to make of those vanilla advice columns where things like honor, integrity and honesty never even enter the dialogue? While we may not uphold our ideals, it looks more and more like "relationships experts" wouldn't recognize a moral principle if it bit them on the nose.

Finally, Storm, to comment on one point in your very thoughtful response.

**An individual who would intentionally lie in their posts here ....... if found out ..... there would be no doubt that this behavior was NOT acceptable and that it would not be tolerated. **

The fact is that since this is an anonymous environment, where most folks use yahoo or other anonymizers to post (on my recommendation, no less! *g*), there really is NO WAY of telling who is real and who isn't. Yes, if I found out someone was deliberately misrepresenting him/herself, or if someone began advocating dishonorable behavior, or if I discovered that one person was using multiple accounts to log on as different personalities, I'd lock 'em out. But I don't snoop around to try and get that info and a skillful nut could easily fool me here. :-)

Words come easily. People can write anything or say anything. People can sign up using dozens of different handles and have entire conversations with themselves, too :-) What counts IMO, in SM as well as vanilla, is how they behave in personal encounters in 3D. We all know of subs (and doms) whose hearts have been broken by people who claimed to be one thing on-line and even by phone, and then completely flaked out when it came to standing by his/her words.

So I, for one, take everything I see on-line, including stuff in our somewhat safe haven, with one big fat mountain of salt. The people I've either met or talked to or who've corresponded with me using their real email addresses, I accept at face value. The others...(shrug)...I hope for the best. :-) I accept it as a reality of the Internet (and of life, for that matter) that each luscious barrel of apples will contain a few rotten fruit. And I'd like to advise you, and others, to remember all that too.

Just some more thoughts for you to chew on... :-)

xx,

Glory

(who is really enjoying reading all youreveryone's responses to this thread!!!)

Dear Storm,
I agree that the standards here are high, but at other popular sites in the BDSM community, that is not the case. I think that this specific site has a higher concentration of moral people than the vanilla population at large. I don't know that that is true of the BDSM community as a whole compared to the vanilla community.
I have some real-life friends who are involved in BDSM who are among the most wonderful, honorable people I know. I don't agree with all of their morals/ethics, but they strive not to do harm to others, and to live by their own codes.

Glory........

"The fact is that since this is an anonymous environment, where most folks use yahoo or
 other anonymizers to post (on my recommendation, no less! *g*), there really is NO WAY
 of telling who is real and who isn't. Yes, if I found out someone was deliberately
 misrepresenting him/herself, or if someone began advocating dishonorable behavior, or if
 I discovered that one person was using multiple accounts to log on as different
 personalities, I'd lock 'em out. But I don't snoop around to try and get that info and a skillful
 nut could easily fool me here. :-) "

i do realize that you do not snoop ..... and i do realize that words really mean nothing until followed by action that both reinforce and confirm that the words are spoken in honesty ... truth and respect.

What is was trying to say ...... and we know that i sometimes stumble over my words <g> ..... is that for me .... an individual who finds it very difficult to trust ...... is often confused by expectations ... standards ... values and the like ... for no other reason then that most of my life ... those closest to me or having the greatest impact "spoke with FORKED tongue"

When i post here ........ i post with all the honesty and truth that i am capable of putting into words. Though opinions and responses may hit me hard at times .......... i trust that for the most part truths are shared not lies.

i feel comfortable in the fact that you ..... as Moderator .....set the high expectations for behavior ... for values ..... and truth and honesty.

And Glory ............."""""I accept it as a reality of the Internet (and of life, for
 that matter) that each luscious barrel of apples will contain a few rotten fruit. And I'd like to
 advise you, and others, to remember all that too. """"""

i am more then aware of that and unfortunately i have been more of the mindset that ...."""each rotten barrel of apples will contain at least one luscious apple" ..... at least where honesty ... truth ... and respect are concerned. The fact that this site has so many of those luscious apples ..... has helped counter the abuse and brain washing of the past.

Opalescent Dreams

""I have some real-life friends who are involved in BDSM who are among the most
 wonderful, honorable people I know. I don't agree with all of their morals/ethics, but they
 strive not to do harm to others, and to live by their own codes."""

i guess that this is also along the same line in that ....when one speaks from an honest ... truthful and a respectful place ..... with the intent not to do harm to others ...... then the fact that there are differences in the moral and/or ethics ....... do not , imho, set the stage for abuse .... dishonesty ..... fear or confusion..

Dear Storm,
I don't expect others to share my specific moral and ethical code. It is actually rediculous to think that something that personal could be one size fits all, which is why I hate blanket statements that everyone should (fill in the blank). As long as people don't do intentional harm, I can get along well with them, for the most part.

[NB. I wrote this on the 26th, for some weird reason it came up as private. Wasnt meant to, and somewhat answers Opal's questions, so here it tis, again. There were more thoughts, but unfortunately my brain is doing a remarkably accurate impersonation of three day old porridge, which I will refrain from inflicting on the rest of you. Jules]

Glory,
       now you have seriously got me thinking!

**Yes, I would, actually. Do you find that odd?

Errm, actually, now that I think about it... no. To be truthful, I wasnt thinking about it from an established Dom's point of view at all. Was feeling it from mine. Which is an at the beginning point of view. And frankly, in-the-beginning I dont want to know. It is not going to help me feel safe or secure to know that he cheated on an ex. OTOH, it would surprise me to find out something like that 5 years down the track. To discover that I had been lied to about it, would *freak* me. Generally, unless I feel safe enough (or unsafe enough) I dont ask.

Total disclosure / transparency. Yep, thats me. I am even a little obsessive about telling people things I think might freak them - on the theory that if you are going to freak out and run away, I would rather you did it now, rather than a year or two down the track. If you have been a real friend for 12 months or so, and there is something that you dont know about me - then its most likely because I think you do.

But for me, there are some things I dont want to hear. That she was better/tighter/subbier/more feminine/bustier/the love of your life - oh and by the way did you know you have a _huge ugly_ pimple on your chin? Especially at the beginning of a relationship.

Hmm.. there are a lot more thoughts that go with that, but I have to scoot, or I am going to miss my second plane in one day!

Julie

My sense is that BDSMers are no more moral -- honest, respectful, tolerant, loyal and courageous -- than any other group.

If nothing else would enforce this sense it is the so-frequent encounter with those who wishfully construct a relationship outside their marriages -- "Because *I* need d/s I can have a d/s relationship outside my marriage and lie to my spouse about it (because s/he doesn't understand/disapproves I won't even talk to him or her about it -- and thus deny my spouse the fundamental right to make his or her own decision about what to do about my adultery). This isn't adultery, this is about filling *my* fundamental need, and thus is justified."

Until it blows up in the adulterer's face. As it always does. Because the entire structure created then out of d/s dreams is based on dishonesty.

The paradox of d/s ....