From: Thorn4MyRose

I was enjoying a surprisingly civil discussion in an aol chatroom the other night on the subject of orchestrating safe edge play. Eventually, the conversation came around to the concept of 'force' when a young lady (who professed to be an 'awakening submissive married to an at-this-point vanilla partner') stated (quite courageously under the circumstances, I might add), "I have a fantasy of my husband raping me and then becoming my master."

As you might imagine, the civility eroded immediately. Platitudes, judgments and bathroom legal advice began to fly with extreme prejudice (and I'm sure along with quite a few lewd offers to the woman in question). Frankly, it was quite sad to watch, but such is often the nature of that medium. Anyway, when all the flying typing fingers had tired sufficiently, I asked the woman this simple question (which seemed to give most of the participants a calming cue):

"When you say 'rape', do you mean him taking you forceFULLY or forcIBLY?"

Obviously, her intention was to communicate the desire to consent SAFELY to an intense, extreme, and erotic activity with her spouse (who she hoped would eventually have dominant traits awaken within him), not to a violently abusive criminal act. The fact that she expressed it using a particular label brought about very emotional, kneejerk responses which completely overlooked WHAT she was trying to communicate.

As a topic of the week then, and especially for the benefit of any 'vanilla' folks silently reading this board in an effort to try to understand what this way of living is about, I'd like to throw out these general questions for comments, insight, opinions, and hopefully even more questions:

Why do YOU believe that activities you openly consent to should not be considered abusive? Or do you? If not, what is your position and reasoning?

How do YOU personally draw the line between something that you feel you can consent to vs. something that you're not sure may be abusive and that you shouldn't consent to? Do you rely on your own instincts, for example? Comfort zone? Your dominant's understanding of you (if you're a submissive)? Or, if you're a dominant, your understanding of the submissive?

Are the 'labels' of any consequence in your thinking? In other words, does the label 'rape play' immediately evoke such negative issues emotionally that you feel it would be abusive under ALL circumstances? Would a different label (such as 'resistance play') make a difference (even if the activity itself is similar in nature) in your thinking? Does a label such as 'slave' (as opposed to 'submissive') immediately cause you to think that you are giving up the right to differentiate between consent and abuse?

Finally, what advice would YOU give to a novice (dominant OR submissive) or curious vanilla person that might help them understand what makes consenting bdsm activities so fulfilling and joyful as opposed to abusive?

Be safe,
T.

Rose4MyThorn

Thanks for putting together that phrase: "forceFULLY or forceIBLY". That really snaps things into focus.

I've made mention in other areas on this board of some of the abuse issues I've failed to deal with in my past relationships. The "rapeplay" falls into this, because (from the research I've been able to find) many abuse survivors do have rape/abuse sexual fantasies. One of the ways people deal with their traumas is by eroticising them. By doing this, it gives them power over the pain.

When I was confronted by women who wanted to eroticise their past sexual traumas of parental abuse, I was shocked and unable to do it. To me, sexually abusing ones' children was (and still is) just about the lowest thing someone can do. I couldn't even imagine fantasizng about something like that. However, in hindsite, this was the wrong thing to do. If I had worked with my partner's needs instead of trying to resist ("cure") them, we probably would have all been happier.

Also, even with women who haven't been abused, the fantasy of being over-powered by a lover is very strong. I used to know a bunch of romance novelists who just loved to write the part of the novel where the hero rapes the heroine. Now, I'm not saying all women want to be raped. Men who watch action movies don't really want someone to shoot at them, either. These are just fantasies. We need to be able to work with each-other's fantasies, which takes a lot of effort.

Nightheron

<<The "rapeplay" falls into this, because (from the research I've been able to find) many abuse survivors do have rape/abuse sexual fantasies. One of the ways people deal with their traumas is by eroticising them. By doing this, it gives them power over the pain. >>

Very well said Nightheron! I was going to reply, but you said it best.

kay

From: Thorn4MyRose
To: curiousk

Hmm...power over the pain? I'm not quite sure I agree.

The eroticism of previous trauma is certainly a viable coping mechanism (I agree there), but do you think perhaps that it's more a case of RELEASING the pain as opposed to finding power over it? Or if any power is indeed involved, do you think that it could be that in GIVING (through conscious consent) such power over yourself to another, what was once mentally painful becomes mentally pleasureable? Just something to consider. :-)

Perhaps you might expound on your idea of 'power over the pain' with examples other than rape play?

Be safe,
T.

i can understand kay's view on this....it's a concept my Training Master and i discussed frequently....power over the pain through eroticism. Although i have not yet experienced subspace and dont expect to anytime soon, that may be a derivative of this concept but i cant address it with any personal conviction.

From an emotional/physical perspective i used to block exceedingly well--not that things didnt hurt (re: some of my discussions in previous posts) but that i was able to subvert or block the pain. Now that i am working on releasing more emotionally, i have found that my threshold and tolerance is significantly diminished, and that i am much more vulnerable both to emotional and physical pain.

With that said, and having previously stated that i am most definitely NOT a masochist and avoid pain (you wont find spanking/caning/flogging on the top of my list), why then can i tolerate the pain my Training Master inflicted on me? It is because i am learning to process the pain as pleasure, i am eroticising the experience...to the extent that i can only accept it/find it erotic in my submission. While He can cane me, i would never agree to let anyone else touch me in that way, Dom or not, because i do not submit to them nor do i have an emotional bond with them that allows me to eroticise the kink. It would only be pain.

i still have great difficulty watching public play, especially if it is something that i have not personally experienced, because i empathize with the pain i perceive--not the pleasure the sub is experiencing. Even though i *know* it may not be pain to them, it is still pain to me because i am not eroticising *their* experience and i usually have to walk away.

From: Thorn4MyRose

Well, I most certainly understand the view; in fact, it's quite common. Just offering a countering perspective, I suppose.

Consider this point: Detaching from pain (also known as subspace or the 'sweet taste of submission') IS in fact a release from it, becoming quite pleasureable in the process. In that vein, if one would refer to it as having 'power over the pain', I would have to offer that it's a misuse of the wording. But as I so often say, the labels we apply are an important consideration.

As far as the topic itself goes, lace, I am particularly struck by the comments regarding your lack of masochism as a preference. In view of the activities you note in your statement, wouldn't you therefore agree that the pleasure you gain does in fact lie in the consent you give to your trainer (as opposed to the activity itself)? Without such consent, what do you think would happen and how would you personally view it?

Be safe,
T.

Yes, Thorn, i agree, my pleasure in those activities comes exclusively from my submission, i dont seek them on my own or with others. During Our/our training i gave Him my consent through trust, which He never abused...and in exchange i never denied Him His pleasure and i in turn also learned pleasure. i would consider that type of activity, without consent, to most definately be abuse. Personally, i would not tolerate it...and would probably knock his socks off, assuming i wasnt emotionally connected *sm*.

as far as the abuse issue goes... i think as an intelligent adult who has the ability to reason, i have made the choice to venture into territory that some may view as abuse... however, that is not "my" view of it .. oh, take me back about 10 years and my viewpoint might have been very different , but, thank goodness, i have been given the capacity to grow and evolve... throwing judgments around about how other people find pleasure is not my place or business, nor should it be their business how i find mine... i do think that within a relationship, there are personal limits that should be discussed at length often because i see these limits evolve as well as the individuals... my Master and i have a list of limits that He has me score along the lines of "no problem" all the way to "no way" and varying degrees in between... the interesting thing about this list is, it can vary according to my mood and confidence level and gives Him an idea of where my mind-set is at... does he ever push the limits that i have specified as "no way"? sure he pushes, just to see how "compliant " i am... and i normally go along and try for Him and that's really all he desires ... would i consider this abuse? no way... i know in my heart and soul that He would never do anything to harm me physically or emotionally and i trust Him in this.... i have given Him this control... it was my choice... that is the key ....

i don't put much credence into labels... they are thrown around so easily and mean something different to each individual. i think the important thing in any situation like this is communication and honesty between the parties involved... i mean i would think there are some subs that probably have limits that certain Dom/Dommes couldn't begin to approach because of their own set of limits.. if these Dom/Domme's felt pressured to pursue these limits, would that be considered abuse?? hardly...

my advise for anyone, vanilla or a lifestyler, is keep and open mind and resist the urge to judge... we are all different in our needs and desires and just because we don't understand what floats someone else's boat, doesn't mean its wrong or abusive... all we can do is be true to our passion.

dsp

Ahhhhhhhhh
Another topic that is so very close to my heart, and one that I am sorting through.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that anything that is done without consent is abuse. Be it in this lifestyle or in the Nilla world.

What I am wrestling with is the actual consenting or the vague type of consenting (????) that comes with "going with the flow" so to speak. Or better yet, when you allow someone to do something that you do not like .. are uncomfortable with and at times would like to get very violent because of. Not putting a stop to an activity or situation is the same as consenting to it.

I may be wrong here but as I see it .... I have been in an abusive type of relationship(s) for most of my life. I never really realized that I was because I knew nothing different ......... but I do now. Knowing that still does not change the fact that by my allowing the behavior I was in fact sort of consenting to it. I say this because it overflows into my learning and being a part of this lifestyle.

There is an ever so thin line to the idea of actually consenting and implied consenting and one that I am sitting on the fence with.

I now see that I am an extremely easy person to abuse ,,, and at times this scares the crap out of me because I do not want to stay where I am forever.

Any thoughts out there as to how I can better gauge my reactions?

Storm

The simple answer to the question of abuse or submission is: there is no simple answer. Abusers don't usually think of themselves as abusers and it can often take years for a victim to admit to themselves that they are being abused. In between that are a lot of grey areas.

Sorry, kids, but nobody is going to solve this riddle on this or any other bulletin board.

Nightheron

I now see that I am an extremely easy person to abuse ,,, and at times this scares the crap out of me because I do not want to stay where I am forever

this statement perplexes me, I have been abused in my life but never ever felt that I was an easy target, all abusers make their abused easy targets, simply put it is because we are co dependent on them or allow ourselves to be at fault for their abuse - but as Nighteron said, kids, this isn't something that will EVER be solved on this or any other board.

To Thorn4MyRose ......

I wanted to say a bit about my thoughts on pain .... at least where I am involved.

I live with a rather high level of pain on a day to day basis, and have for over ten years. Before that time my acquaintance with pain was a rather on again off again sort of thing.

Over the years "pain" became both my adversary as well as my challenge. It was as though we were involved in a battle of wills ... with me being determined that "pain" would not be the victor. It was in a manner of speaking a game of control. A game that I WAS DETERMINED TO WIN.

There was also a deep emotional pain from being sexually abused for several years as a child, being raped as a teenager, and being in a marriage where I was a "bought and paid for" whore.

My first R/T experience with SM play proved to be most beneficial as a method of pain control. The effects of those "endorphines" were felt long after the playing had ceased. It was indeed an added plus to scening .... but it was also sooooooooo much more.

I changed in ways that I can not put words to. The mental gymnastics that I had done for years .... trying to balance "being forced" with the "need to please" had just about torn me apart. My choice ..... to allow .... to submit turned anguish and pain ..... into ..... pleasure and freedom.

I found that I was gradually not interested any longer in "controlling" but rather in embracing. There was a slow transition from "a battle to the end" to an acceptance of co- existance. Fear was replaced with a curiosity to explore more .. to journey further.

I do not know if I said this very well so that anyone has a clue of what I mean ...... It is something that I know .... that I sense ..... that I feel.

Storm

From: Thorn4MyRose
To: Storm

The fact that you would share something so deeply personal about yourself here speaks highly of your hope that others may learn from your experiences. As always, I am very impressed by the quality and candor of the people who post here, but I want to publicly say that you're quite special for sharing the above, Storm.

I think you'll find that MANY (and possibly thousands who read the board but don't post here) not only 'have a clue' as to what you mean, but embrace it as their own motivation as well. More importantly, many people who didn't align how pain becomes pleasure went 'aha' when they read your piece. Couldn't you hear them? :-)

Be safe.
T.

Correlation Theory

Been dealing with another thought that I’d like to bounce off all of you. Does abuse in your past, some how correlate with BDSM, D/s desires? I read a study (or maybe it was a message board somewhere) on this, and now for the life of me, can not remember where.

If past abuse does some how correlate with the lifestyle, what causes it to do so? Why does someone who has been abuse in any form, desire to peruse a relationship along the fine line as the pain, control transfer, humiliation factors? Doesn’t this trigger some sort of flash back at times? Is it a form of self-punishment?

What if you have never been abused/abusive in the past? What do you think it is, within the lifestyle that then draws you to it? Or is it perhaps that you no longer gain a physical (sexual) gratification from just *plain* sex? So you then, search for more?

Or, what if you entered into a basic desire that you just liked *kink*, and that desire for that kink was somehow turned into abuse? What is/was it that draws you back after a horrific experience?

Do you think that all this has to deal with us, as humans, craving the tremendous need to trust and be trusted? Some how in our minds does it turn into something physical, like a hug, a touch? Or is it all just about those hormones flying around us?

I’d like to hear some thoughts. And if any one happens to know where I can read on the net about case studies of this correlation, please let me know.
Thanks,

Crickett

This is what I enjoy most from these message boards is the open communication and honesty that floats around...I would consider this to be a beautiful Aura...Crickett....thanks for the questions...I have been thinking about those for a long time now and question this myself...so now I say it is essay time...time for me to dig real deep...I will post my thoughts when it is complete.

*~Dawn~*

Twilight's Aura
Releasing pain vs. power over pain.
I think that a lot of people hold into the pain, until it abcesses deep within their hearts. They feel that they should be over it. They try not to feel. My guess is that going through pain, or a pretend rape, is explicit permission to feel again, to go back to that time in a way, interact with the pain, feel its shape, and to control it, because it is *your* choice to feel it.
I was abused, which led to my need to be in control. In order for sex not to be painful physically and emotionally for me, I must be in charge of what happens to my body.

Crickett,

This is an area where I have a little more first-hand knowledge than I ever wanted. Now, I don't pretend to be an expert on this subject. Frankly, I wish I didn't know anything about this subject. I would love to be blissfully ignorant of it all and go through life thinking that "this sort of thing doesn't happen to the people I know".

The first woman I ever fell in love with had a fetish for married men. She also had some very deep-seated domination & punishment fantasies. She would also get involved in very intense, emotionally abusive relationships with other men.

We were both only 18, when we met. It took me years of studying both her and psychology to realize that she had been sexually abused by her father.

Since then, I have either had (or attempted to have) realtionships with women who (it turned out) had been sexually abused as children. All have had some very rough fantasies about being sexually dominated, bound, and physically punished.

Now, not all abuse survivors desire BDSM. I can't say that. Most women I've known have at (at least) playful bondage fantasies. However, of the women I've known who have survived childhood sexual abuse, ALL of them exhibated a desire for strong sexual domination that went beyond the realm of mere foreplay.

One possible reason for this is that since they had very strong physical stimulation at an early age, they may require more, harder stimulation as an adult. You sometimes find this in people who come from families where the parents frequently engaged in loud arguements.
The children who grow up in these situations often find normal "nice" partners dull and unexciting. They need a partner who gives them greater stimulation, even if it's bad stimulation. The abuse survivors I've personally known have all gone through multiple bad relationships with abusive men.

The question then arises: if you are not and abusive man (or woman), how do you handle a partner who has been brought up this way? One who needs a "high adreneline" relationship?

Again, I have no concrete answers. I'm not a psychiatrist. The best anwser I've been able to come up with is to find some sort of positive stimulation.

Part of this could be something as simple as engaging with your parnter in some sort of sport or exercise program. The excitement generated by sports produces a good, natural endorphin rush. I know it sounds horribly simplistic, but sports and exercise also builds confidence and strength, which can help as well.

The other solution is to create an atmosphere of "positive erotic suspense". I call this the "Waiting for Christmas Effect". As a kid, we can hardly wait for Christmas to come. As an adult, we can hardly wait for Christmas to be over. Why is this? It's because as a kid, Christmas is something that happens to us. We don't know what to expect, but we know it will be good. As an adult, it's just a big responsibility. If you are the lover of someone who has been abused as a child, and if you can create within them a feeling that something good is going to happen to them but they don't know what, and if you can sustain that feeling of suspense until they are practically jumping out of their skins, then you might be able to redirect their need for greater stimulation into something good for them.

I'll grant you, it's a lot of work. Maybe more work than it's worth. But it's the only plan I've been able to come up with.

The other aproach would be to try some way to "cure" them.

I've tried that.

The results were disasterous.

Nightheron

Nightheron,

I would like to thankyou for your response and you hit it right on the head with it as well. I did not know how to approach this situation without getting into messy past things I am not ready to share and ended up with writting an essay...lol...I totally agree with you about how to handle it becasue I am the subject of such relationships within my past...It took many years and patience from my husband and things worked out beautifully but not everyone is as lucky. The whole key is for the person within the abuse to recgnoize the abuse and change the situation. They need to look into themselvs deeply and accept. My Master was not raised in abuse or around it where I was and it continued until I was 18. It was difficult for me to accept what I always went back to but I did. Lucky for me an angel came along and changed the pattern in my life. I was worth the waite my M says to me all the time. I am also greatful he waited.

*~Dawn~*

From: Thorn4MyRose
(General posting)

Theories and intellectual debates aside, ANY victim wrestling with such issues should strongly consider seeking competent diagnosis and productive assistance. Whether it be through simple counseling, moderate therapies, or extensive treatment, there is almost always something positive to be gained (and certainly nothing will be gained if no help is sought).

(And, as 'Night' alluded to, unqualified psychoanalysis is usually a dangerous pursuit. Even if well intended, there are too many variables involved that, when handled improperly, can cause more damage than help.)

Be safe,
Thorn

Abuse ....... even now i do not have a full recollection of the extent of my abuse. i have bits and pieces ...... memories ..... dreams that i can not remember ...... triggers that bring forth reactions that leave me trembling and confused ......

Slowly i am understanding and from there i can separate the patterned reaction/response of the past from the response in the present. The best example that i can give relates to my job. i work in a STAT Lab in a hospital. When i was 6 1/2 ..... in order to diagnosis my Polio i had to undergo a Lumbar puncture ( better known as a Spinal Tap) It was a traumatic experience for many reasons ...... but that experience is alive and well in my mind. i did not realize just how alive it was until the day a specimen for testing came into the Lab.
i was standing near the area where specimens are received for testing when a nurse walked up to me with four clear tubes containing spinal fluid. It was a matter of seconds and i was engulfed in a hysterical crying episode .... trembling from head to toe ..... and scaring the crap out of my fellow employees. They were sure that i had just lost my grasp on reality and to a degree ...... for those minutes i had. i had not even realized that i had responded that way ...... and it took quite a bit of talking with someone to understand what had happened. It took a bit longer to get a grip on that auto response.
i still can feel the fear well up inside of me every time that a spinal fluid comes into the Lab for testing ..... but i no longer am swept away to the hysteria that was mine when i experienced it when i was 6.

There have been several things over the past few years that have happened with similar results ..... and there will be several more as i remember ..... but i am no longer frightened ..... and actually in some ways i look forward to these. Crazy ...... maybe ....... but it brings me closer to me ..... puts me more in touch with the universe ..... with the power of the mind.

i have begun to understand that my needs stem partially from my abusive experiences in that my self control with regards to my intellect and emotions is like a vice at times. i have become an expert at the mental gymnastics required to keep my distance ...... to wonder and never focus ...... to be there but not be there.

It seems as though when a situations hit too close to the memories of the past ...... i begin to process one program after another ...... never allowing anything to interrupt .... to wrestle control from me. Yet because of this wonderful skill ...... i am a prisoner unable to free myself.

Oh to find that one who could pull that plug on this computer in my head ....... just long enough for me to disconnect from the past and reconnect at a different level.

i know what i mean but have found no other that knows where i am traveling from or where i need to go.

on that note ....... by for now

Storm